 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jenny C
Date: 2020-09-04 05:50
Hello. I'm hoping to get some help regarding choosing clarinet. A bit background about myself. I've played clarinet back in middle school and high school for about 5 years. Loved it, but didn't think making it a career would work out, so went for something else in university. I considered buying a clarinet as a graduation present for myself, but didn't think I would get much practice done living in the dorm. And then with the student loan, I felt that the purchase should wait. So now that a few years later I'm loan free, I have finally decided to pick up clarinet again as a hobby.
I've never owned a clarinet. I've done some research online and it seems like getting a refurbished professional clarinet would be a better idea than getting a new intermediate one. And getting refurbished clarinet from repair technicians would be more reliable than from internet ads especially for someone like me who doesn't know much about choosing clarinet. So I did send several emails out to local technicians and was able to get some responses.
I'm not sure if it's okay to mention the prices, if not please let me know or please delete this post and I'm very sorry. I'm in Canada, so keep in mind all the prices I mentioned are in CAD. One local store informed me they have refurbished R13 available. 1970's (~$2700) and 1960's (~$1800). There's also custom horn that's similar to R13 (~$1700). Another repair technician informed me he has a Yamaha custom CS (~$2000).
Everyone I contacted was nice, but I just want to double check if the prices sound reasonable? It's easy to find the new price for the models, but when it's refurbished, I am not too sure what's the expectation as I see all kind of prices listed on internet ads. The ~$1000 difference between 1960's and 1970's R13 also makes me wonder if there's a big difference between them. I don't think I've seen a thread comparing R13 from these two decades, they are usually just grouped together as vintage. Please let me know if I’m missing something obvious.
I’ve read up reviews on these models, but of course, there are always people who like it and those who don’t. I know it’s suggested to try out the instrument. However, I've only played plastic clarinet before and it's been 8 years since I last played, so I don't even know if I can play the sound properly now. I am unsure if trying out the clarinet myself would be of much help. I've tried listening to professionals playing different models on Youtube, but either it's the sound quality of the video or just my crappy ears, I don't hear that much difference between different models. And personally, I do not know people that play clarinet, so I don't have anyone that can accompany me to actually test them out.
I am pretty lost as to which one would be the best choice, so would really appreciate some pointers and advice. I am unsure where to go from here. Thanks in advance.
Post Edited (2020-09-04 06:34)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2020-09-04 09:01
Hi Jenny,
I had played (professionally) for a few years and then stopped playing for a long time, so I am (sort of) familiar with your situation.
If I were in your position, I would look for an entry level (read relatively cheap) instrument.
I cannot explain all the details you need to check when choosing a clarinet (new or used) in my reply-it would take a while to write. A good tech probably could write a few pages explaining how to chose an instrument. And a good player would add another few pages to that...
Since you have not played for awhile, you probably would not be able to enjoy a full potential of a professional level clarinet at this time.
If you can, get a used entry level clarinet that you can resell in a few months without losing much money.
Hopefully, you will be able to evaluate an instrument after you have played for a few months, so at that point you could start looking for a better one.
In my experience, craigslist was better than eBay in buying instruments.
I believe Canadian equivalent of Craigslist would be Kijiji.
If the seller claims that the instrument is in good condition, you can even ask them to demonstrate for you. Something that cannot be done on eBay.
Another solution would be to go to a brick-and-mortar store in your area and check their
selection.
Basic check of the clarinet would include:
Are there any cracks ( decreased re-sell value), not needed if buying plastic clarinet.
Do both joints hold air ? - both blowing in and holding suction?
Do all the keys move freely but have little play at the attachment points?
Do all keys lift to proper height? What is the condition of tenons and tenon corks?
And a lot more…
Maybe, you can find a clarinet player/ teacher who would volunteer to go into the store with you or check out the instrument if you buy online.
Good luck.
PS
I want to add this: you would need a good professional player to evaluate a pro level instrument because there are R13s that are fine (from any era), and there are some that just do not play - for many different reasons or even without any apparent reason.
Older instruments tend to have more problems with mechanics and more likely to need repair or even complete overhaul.
If buying off eBay, you may assume that the description is inaccurate and budget a few $100s to bring the instrument into proper playing condition- which may not be feasible to do if the clarinet is cheap.
Post Edited (2020-09-04 09:09)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2020-09-04 09:17
Hi Jenny,
It's really difficult to give you much advice about used clarinets without handling them or, at least, knowing more about the sellers and the repair techs who refurbished them. The quality of repair techs can range from outstanding to ... well, let's just say not very good and whether a refurbished instrument is a good investment at a given price will depend on the repair tech's abilities and the condition of the instrument before the tech started to work on it.
Because you have limited experience, I think your best bet might be to contact a good local teacher and work with him/her to select an instrument. That's a bit more difficult these days with Covid19 but, if you can identify a good teacher, you might be able to figure something out. Some lessons, at least while you are starting back, would also be a good idea, IMO. You don't say where you are located but if you are near a college or university with a good music program, you might try contacting the clarinet faculty member there and/or, if you are near a professional orchestra, you might try contacting the clarinetists. Often they know of good instruments for sale locally and you might be able to get a better price on a newer instrument than the ones (particularly the Buffets) you have turned up.
A refurbished good quality professional instrument may or may not be a better investment than a new intermediate instrument. It depends on the condition of the refurbished professional clarinet. Unlike violins, clarinets do not improve with age. Without seeing them, I would be concerned about the two R13s you mention. From the 1960s or 70s until now is a long time, and you don't know where these instruments have been, how they've been used, or how they've been cared for during that time. They might be great clarinets but they may also have developed structural problems over the years (e.g., a warped bore) that an overhaul, even by a great tech, can't fix -- and I suspect you aren't really in any better position to evaluate the repair tech's abilities than you are to evaluate the instruments, themselves. If I were you, I would not buy either of these instruments without an independent expert's opinion. Actually, if I were you, I would not buy any refurbished professional clarinet without an independent expert's opinion. (FWIW, the Yamaha is considerably newer. If memory serves, it dates to the mid- to late- 1990s or possibly the early 2000s. I have no idea what the other "custom" horn is.)
After thinking about this, I actually wonder if (again working in conjunction with a good teacher) you might be best served to start with a good condition used student model instrument. This would entail a smaller investment while you get back up to speed and, if you decide to stick with it, will give you a "bad weather" horn for outdoors when/if you eventually buy a professional instrument.
To answer some of your other questions:
Re: the price difference between the 1960s and 1970s R13s. I suspect the reason is more likely age and condition than design. Buffet did make some design changes in the early 1970s (a 1970s instrument before the change will be the same design as one from the 1960s). Probably the most important change was to move the register hole by 1 mm. It's long been a subject for debate as to whether the changes were actually improvements. Many clarinetists actually consider the older design superior. A famous U.S. repair tech, Hans Moennig, claimed the change signaled the end of Buffet's "Golden Era."
Re: reasonableness of the specific prices. I looked at the websites of some well-regarded repair techs who sell refurbished R13s. The prices they were asking for similar vintage instruments were in the ballpark with what your local shops were asking. FWIW, assuming all the instruments are in very good condition, I think the Yamaha might be the best buy. It is considerably newer and in the Yamaha line, the Custom CS was actually a slightly higher-end model compared to the R13 in the Buffet line. (Again, FWIW, I can say this because I regularly play both a 1960s R13 and a Yamaha CS, which was the immediate predecessor of and, as far as I can tell, the same design as the Custom CS.)
Re: professionals on You Tube/recordings/live. (My opinion.) Any differences are far more likely to be from their sound concept than their equipment. And differences attributable to their clarinet may be more than offset by differences attributable to their mouthpiece and their physical characteristics.
Finally, (and not everyone agrees with me on this) my recommendation to anyone looking to buy a clarinet is: don't buy a clarinet that's older than you are for your front line instrument (unless you have a specific need such as traditional jazz or klezmer). If a clarinet is 50 years old now, how old will it be when you're 60? How many people are playing instruments that old today?
Best of luck in your search and your return to the clarinet.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2020-09-04 09:28)
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-09-05 04:03
My best advice 2 u would b take clarinet lessons and class from your university. This way your professor can influence u. Other students taking the courses Ould help u get feed back about what u're getting n2.
The English language is alpha-numeric (some 1 posted 2 why I use #s in my messages).
It sounds like u're learning towards making an investment more than a hobby and u need to go ahead and sink n2 $4Gs (usd) with a professional Buffet R13. I'm glad I waited and didn't get those intermediate horns because what I had was intermediate already. You're and adult now and u need and will benefit from an adult horn.
Hope this helps!
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-09-05 04:53
I may not be of much help, but my advice is simple--
Beginner (student model) clarinets are much better (IMHO) than when I taught Band starting 1979. I've owned 2 Yamahas, and presently own a Selmer, which I bought 2+ years ago for $165 CAD (HST included). That was a weird price, but they run around 4-$500, which is amazingly about the same as in 1980 (???). These play great.
I've owned 3 Buffet R13s over the years (all new, $265 US in 1097, $520 CAD in 1979 and $2,000 US in 1999). Maybe the best bet is one of those refurbished ones since new Buffets run between 4 and $6,000 now. But only if you want to make it more than a hobby. I practice most of the time on my student Selmer, and use the R13 for concerts, solos, etc.
I agree with the next post in that if at all possible give a used clarinet a good blow before you buy it. Of course if bought online this is probably not an option. If buying new, try several in the store and pick the one that feels best to you. That would involve having a good mouthpiece and reed with you-- again, if possible. I would guess this is more important if you're buying a pro model, as most student models play about the same. And, the store will gladly let you try several if you're going to plunk down a lot of money.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-09-06 04:30)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2020-09-06 01:58
The previous posters have already given great advice.
I may ad: Some instruments, especially used ones, can come with totally unusable mouthpieces and you’re better off with instantly getting a decent one.
Also I can strongly recommend getting a Buffet Prodige, as it’s one of the best beginner instruments, with a good stock mpc and case, so all you need is reeds. Being based on the E13, it’ll also be very easy to find upgrade barrels and mouthpieces (at some later point)
Refurbished clarinets... oh well. A mixed bag. Better to actually meet the seller in person and find put what they have to say about the instrument‘s overall condition. If unsure, take it to a tech and/or don’t buy.
From my experience, I cannot recommend buying used clarinets *without* the proper tech know-how. Better go for an affordable new one, it’s simply easier and safer.
Best regards
Christian
PS:
I’ve recently been shown an extremely old and interesting C clarinet of unknown manufacture. Despite being in dire need of a service, it was actually a very fine place instrument. The family that more ornless inherited hit never would’ve guessed. God forbid it ends up on ebay... You could never tell how well it tunes just from looking at it
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Author: RKing
Date: 2020-09-07 20:51
Jenny,
I don't know how things are going up in Canada, but my local music shop is renting instruments again. If you can find a rental near you, it might be a better way to get your clarinet "chops" back and discover a little more about the sound you want.
I have also had very good success with my Yamaha 255 ("plastic fantastic") student horn. I use it for those outdoor holiday concerts and it plays very well. In fact, I liked it so much that I finally bought a CSVR to replace my R-13.
Yamaha's Quality Control is second to none and I am very happy with my collection of Yamaha woodwinds (two flutes, three saxophones, and two clarinets). Every one of these instruments played well right out of the box.
Cheers,
Ron
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2020-09-08 01:18
I like all the advice given above. However, as a person who went through much of what you did (i.e., enjoyed clarinet, considered studying but chose another path, then returned many years later), when I came back to then instrument after 20+ years, I certainly didn't want to go back to a beginner horn.
I have found great joy in beautifully refurbished vintage instruments. They can be had for a fraction of the price of a new clarinet, are often well-built and higher quality instruments, and there was something that felt "right" for me in playing an older horn given a chance again (since it was in a way the same situation I found myself in!)
You can find refurbished vintage horns in a number of places, but I'm partial to the Vintage Clarinet Doctor (no relationship or endorsement) that always has several beautiful, fully refurbished instruments for reasonable prices. You can google him.
Good luck. It's a wonderful experience coming back to the instrument later in life. Enjoy it!
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2020-09-08 03:50
The prices you mentioned are high considering the age of the instruments. I would consider a good plastic instrument and a good beginner mouthpiece. I'm a professional repair technician - vintage instruments sometimes need ongoing attention.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Jenny C
Date: 2020-09-09 10:02
A huge thanks to everyone who replied. I’ve read all the replies over several times and have spent quite some time reflecting and thinking over my decision. I truly appreciate the time all of you took to provide me with your insight. Especially m1964 and jnk, thanks for typing out so much information!
As for the advice on taking lessons and classes, I think I will start sometime early next year. I do have an immunocompromised family member, so I am hoping to wait till it’s safer to start meeting people “maskless” regularly.
Overall, the general consensus seems to be for me to start with a entry level student clarinet. I totally agree evaluating a pro level instrument is way above my ability right now. So I was going to get a beginner clarinet that one of you recommended. And then wait till I get a lot better before upgrading to a better clarinet to really make use of its full potential.
But then, I received a email reply from Gary Armstrong regarding an intermediate Backun clarinet for $800. This costs about the same for a new beginner clarinet (I looked up the Yamaha 255 Ron recommended & Buffet Prodige Christian recommended). Gary told me Morrie Backun teamed up with Leblanc Co. and has produced some excellent wood clarinet. This is an unknown brand, but he assured me that this clarinet is as good as the Buffet E11. I’ve read up some really nice reviews of Gary on this site, so I trust that his judgement is great. As I do live in Toronto, I can save on the shipping as well. I would also be able to try out the clarinet for a week. Even though I don’t think I can evaluate an instrument, but I think I can tell if I dislike the instrument?
Would this be an appropriate choice for me? I was comparing its price to a new beginner clarinet, because I am unsure if I can clean an online used clarinet properly myself (with COVID in mind) and figured might just be safer to get it from a store or from a tech. This sounds like a great deal, but again as I’m straying off the advice I got here, I’m hoping someone can tell me if this sounds alright or no I really don’t know what I’m doing and am getting sidetracked again...
Thanks,
Jenny
Post Edited (2020-09-09 10:03)
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Author: RKing
Date: 2020-09-09 17:46
Jenny,
If they give you a week to try it out I suggest you give it a try. You should be able to tell how well it works for you by then.
BTW - I agree with your decisions. I will not consider performing again this calendar year. It's not worth the risk to me or my family. Pull out your Rubank (or other beginner) method book and see what you can do. Then possibly sign up for lessons next year.
Cheers,
Ron
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2020-09-10 07:56
Hi again, Jenny
Given that you are inexperienced when it comes to evaluating clarinets, I agree that buying from an established store or repair tech is a much better idea than buying online. You may end up paying a bit more than you would from an unknown online seller but the extra amount you pay is for a reduction in the amount of risk you have to assume. I don't know Gary Armstrong or his work personally but everything I read about him and his work is quite positive. I think you can be confident that an instrument he sells you will be in good playing condition and he will stand behind it.
You mention in your last post that the clarinet he is offering is a Backun-designed Leblanc intermediate wood clarinet. That suggests to me that the clarinet is probably either a Leblanc LB210 or its successor the L210. While these instruments are perhaps not as well-known as Buffet/Selmer/Yamaha, their general reputation is that they were very well-designed, indeed.
Rather than attempt to write a history of Backun's operations, let me just give you a link to his Wikipedia biography.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backun_Musical_Services
It's short and I think you will find it interesting and perhaps it will give you even more confidence in the instrument Gary Armstrong is offering. IMO, nowadays, Backun's instruments are the Mercedes-Benz of clarinets.
The article mentions that Backun worked in partnership with Conn-Selmer which, by that time, owned Leblanc. Initially, he designed professional clarinets but around 2008 or 2009 he worked with Julian Bliss to add innovative student and intermediate models to the line. The result was the LB320 (all composite material -- of Backun's own formulation), the LB310 (mostly composite but with a wooden barrel) and the LB210 (all wood). While Backun was still affiliated with Conn-Selmer, he manufactured all the wood barrels and bells (a selling point) in Canada while Conn Selmer manufactured the rest in the U.S. After the partnership dissolved, Conn-Selmer manufactured everything in the U.S.
I expect that the $800 price you were quoted is Canadian dollars which for comparative purposes translates (at today's exchange rates) to just over $600 U.S. If the clarinet is indeed an LB210 (with Backun-made bell and barrel) and Gary Armstrong stands behind it, I think this is a good price for a good clarinet that will take you a long way.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2020-09-10 07:58)
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Author: gatto
Date: 2020-09-10 18:24
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> IMO, nowadays, Backun's instruments are
> the Mercedes-Benz of clarinets.
I would rather call clarinets of Herbert Wurlitzer "Mercedes Benz". ;-)
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Author: kewald
Date: 2020-09-15 07:31
I love playing my old Boosey & Hawkes Edgware (1949). I'm sure it doesn't play as well as better instruments, but it plays well enough for me to enjoy as a hobby.
Like you, I cannot tell one instrument from another by watching videos that compare instruments. That being said, I do love the sound that artists such as Jose Franch-Ballester produce. Of course he is a consummate professional playing a very fine Backun instrument.
Another online place you might try when looking for your clarinet is Reverb.com.
Kenneth O Ewald, Sr.
210 219-7787
kenneth.ewald@outlook.com
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