 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Enatural
Date: 2019-10-24 23:11
Hi, I am trying to identify my clarinet.
It old, it has a brass metal body, with brass keys, with a rose wood clarinet body hidden inside. It is a 13 key German style instrument with push pin style axles and hand made salt spoon keys. The brille keys may be a modification as the tone holes are not raised or prepared for simple ring ring keys. No Identification marks anywhere, measurement bell to top of barrel is 445 mm, top of first tone hole to G sharp/ D sharp is 160 mm.
The mouth piece ligature and cap are not original. The rest appears to be an original but unidentified clarinet.
Has anyone seen one of these?
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-10-24 23:28
The picture hasn't come through yet, but there were Conn "Armored" clarinets - though I thought those were brass over hard rubber...it has been too long since I've seen/discussed these, and I'll have to look back to see what I can find.
Perhaps someone else will chime in while I look back through my notes.
Fuzzy
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Author: Enatural
Date: 2019-10-25 00:22
So, I looked at the Conn Boehm armored clarinet, and it is the same principle, but mine is not silver, I think brass and it has a rosewood inner clarinet German system.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2019-10-25 00:50
Thanks for the photo! Yeah, I think Conn made the armored models in the early 1920s or something like that, and your example looks a lot older than that - the keywork doesn't have rollers or anything. Pretty cool!
Unfortunately, I won't be able to be much help.
Fuzzy
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Author: Enatural
Date: 2019-10-25 01:00
Thanks Fuzzy, yes I think it is old, the ring keys could have been added after Sax invented them, the length gives me the impression it is in the key of D. I am hoping to find someone good on Clarinet history here on the site. I want to know a bit about it before I clean off a couple of hundred years of patina.
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Author: Enatural
Date: 2019-10-27 01:24
Attachment: IMG_20191026_231017.jpg (1100k)
So, I started to take this thing apart, and removed the bell ring that was soldered on and the tenon joint ring. The wooden clarinet inside the brass bell was broken into two parts. I think the brass will clean up quite well and the inner wooden clarinet should also polish up, and I will glue and solder it all back together when it is clean. I cannot think why someone would build a clarinet blank then encase it in brass. Other than that the key posts need a solid base to screw to. If I clean it all up it will look a little like a soprano sax.
I have looked at a lot of museum photos, and still cannot find anything that looks the same as this.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2020-08-17 10:38
I did look at the pictures. You are certain that the inside is wood as opposed to being ebonite? You can actually see grain in the wood -- this would be especially apparent where it was cracked. By the way, I am very impressed with your technical skills to work on such an instrument.
Fuzzy mentioned the Conn "armored' clarinet. These were silver plated. Early Conns often were silver plated over brass so it is possible that someone stripped the plating. Does it shine up very nicely? Conn did offer gold plated instruments. Normally you gold plate over silver plate but apparently Conn didn't do that, instead plating directly over copper.
If you are on facebook, there is a Metal Clarinet Awareness Group which is fairly active. If you post some close up pictures I can compare to one of the Conn Armored. That said, while Conn made some double walled simple systems, I'm not sure they offered an armored simple system.
How did you come across this interesting instrument?
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Author: Enatural
Date: 2020-08-17 19:09
Attachment: IMG_20200817_164154.jpg (602k)
Hello Jim, thanks for your interest. I will put up a photo of the bottom section tenon. It is damaged a little on the end. And shows the wooden tenon with fibers. It also shows the outside of the metal sleeve which is made of brass and painted with some kind of brown varnish. Also a photo of all the sections of this clarinet. You can see the bell which is broken in half I think the wood may be rose wood, but I am no expert, it is not ebonite.
As I cannot do much with the bell and barrel at the moment, I have borrowed a barrel, mouthpiece and bell from an E clarinet which is just a bit smaller than this D. I will keep the metal clarinet intact. I will use these pieces to make my D clarinet and I have no idea yet whether it is high pitch or low pitch.
Roy
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Author: Enatural
Date: 2020-08-17 19:26
I have looked at a lot of photos on the mino music instrument museum site and I to think it could be Ziegler from Austria. What I have been unable to find is an example of the D sharp/ G sharp crossover key. I am sure if I can find this I can find the maker.
How I got the clarinet, I was searching for a D clarinet of 445 mm from end of bell to top of barrel. And this measured exactly 445 mm. So I bought it. Size wise it fits into my collection.
I will look of face book to find your group.
Roy
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2020-08-18 00:47
I'm hoping that Al Rice checks in on this one. He has just published a new edition of his terrific book on early clarinets. I'm a couple chapters in and pretty amazed at the depth of research.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2020-08-18 08:51
Attachment: Brass Clarinets, Nineteenth Century-1.doc (55k)
I sent a link with your pix to Mr Rice and got back the following
The overall appearance and use of a short, straight G# key suggests a British maker such as Higham (1860s) or Boosey & Co. (1880s).
There were a few makers who made double-wall clarinets some with the inner body made of wood. Examples include:
Charles Sax, Brussels, E-flat, 13-keys, ca. 1850, boxwood covered with brass
Charles Mahillon, Brussels, E-flat, ca. 1855, boxwood covered with silver
Charles Mahillon, Brussels, B-flat, ca. 1890, Albert-system (12 keys, 2 rings), stained dark wood covered with silver-plated brass
Gaetano Spada, Bologna, A-flat, ca. 1888, 11-keys, boxwood covered with brass
Streitwolf in Göttingen appears the first to make ca. 1830, the earliest double-wall clarinet with two brass bodies with 13 German silver keys, and ferrules.
Attached is a list of brass clarinets that I compiled mostly from extant and some mentioned in patents.
Post Edited (2020-08-19 06:53)
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Author: Enatural
Date: 2020-08-18 15:47
So I looked at the list and eliminated Sax , Mahillon, Spada, Streitwolf, Higham, and Boosy.
Then I checked out Ziegler but all too different. I saw Johann Simon Stengel who is on your list, and as I have a small clarinet that looks like one of his. I looked him up, my link took me to the Scenkonst Museum the Swedish museum of performing arts. And found a clarinet that could be my clarinet's younger brother.
The bell looks similar the bell ring on mine could have been added later. The G# key goes under the long side keys but looks similar. Barrel looks the same, tenon looks similar. Body looks similar except for the raised tone holes and the broken keys. It is item number M679.
I will not attempt to repair my bell or barrel but replace them with one of my E clarinet replacement parts. There is one key I must resolder the hinge. And minimum cleaning.
I am still fairly sure it is a D because it is the same length as my FB Eb 445mm.
So, thank you Fuzzy, Jim and Mr Rice for pointing me in the right direction to identify my clarinet.
Roy
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-08-21 07:21
Wow - that M679 photo is pretty cool. What's up with that extra extension on the right hand pinky key (low F)? Very interesting!
I'm also interested in the date provided on the museum page, "latest 1920." I sure expected the date to be much earlier.
What a neat find though - good luck with the restoration and playing!
Fuzzy
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Author: Enatural
Date: 2020-08-21 11:51
Hi Fuzzy,
The R4 C/F key.
Outside of the Bohme world there are many options for the R4 tone mechanism. The style of key on this clarinet was generally obsolete by the 1850's.
The mino site lists 22 Stengel instruments, from 1790 to before 1920. It lists Johann Samuel and Johann Simon Stengel. But they could not have made instruments for 130 years. So there must be other Stengel instrument makers at present unidentified. Instrument M679 has no information except that it was made before 1920. It may have been laying in a drawer
in the workshop when they found it in 1920:7;
However the photo from the museum is good.
My instrument has been modified in the past so, I will retain all the old pieces and add some other parts. My D# clarinet bell fits better than the E bell.
Roy
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-08-21 18:56
Thanks for the additional info.
I'm still curious about the R4 key/pad/extension. In the museum photo it appears to have an extra (small) tone hole, with a tiny pin-like arm on the adjacent pad cup...would this litlte arm have also had a small pad cup, or was it some type of "half hole" covering? I can't quite tell from the picture.
Fuzzy
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Author: Enatural
Date: 2020-08-26 21:40
Hi Fuzzy,
Yes the museum photo does show this extra little hole with the small rod on the C pad cup. It does look like there is a small pad missing from the clarinet. I have never seen a correction key in this position. Perhaps it was an accepted method used to correct the tuning of clarinets in the past.
Roy
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