 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-16 09:33
The 4-bar piano introduction to Brahms F Minor Clarinet Sonata (Opus 120 Nr 1) is often played at a an ad libitum tempo. The real tempo of the movement-Allegro Appassionato- is usually set at the entrance of the clarinet. Is there any reason for this or is it just a bad tradition that has been handed down from generation to generation? At any rate, there are no markings by Brahms indicating that the tempo of the first four bars should be like a recitativo.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2020-06-16 11:40
The question is whether this is an introduction or in fact the first subject. The excessive rubato is not needed when thought of as the first subject. Too much freedom in the opening means that the recapitulation doesn’t make a lot of sense because the same material is more strictly in time and rather embedded in the texture.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-16 12:56
Peter: I totally agree with you. ...but most pianists I have played with or heard in this piece don't seem to. Why not just play it "a tempo"?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: JohnP
Date: 2020-06-16 15:17
Play it in tempo. If the first three notes aren’t played in tempo it gives me the same feeling as driving over a hump-backed bridge, it leaves my stomach in the air!
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-16 15:54
Hi John: I agree! How do you explain that pianists tend to play it like a recitativo? And protest when you ask them to play the first four bars in tempo? When Brahms wants something, he usually indicates it.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-06-16 17:38
>> How do you explain that pianists tend to play it like a recitativo? And protest when you ask them to play the first four bars in tempo? >>
They sometimes say they feel that the 'appassionato' indication justifies it, and even requires it. My own feeling is that it's possible to overdo such rubato.
>> When Brahms wants something, he usually indicates it. >>
How can we possibly judge such a general statement? We have no independent criterion.
Much of the material of the sonata can be 'excavated' from the opening, with suitable latitude of interpretation. (Rising leap plus stepwise descent would be such a plausible loosening – or just, stepwise descent.) Playing the opening with some degree of modulation fits well with that realisation.
I found it amusing to have the piano line in bars 7 and 6 from the end of the last movement pointed out to me for the first time just a few years ago...
Tony
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-16 18:23
The pianist in the Brahms Sonatas is no "accompanist".
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-16 18:30
Tony: what I meant is that there are quite a few indications of tempo in Brahms, though obviously not as many as in let's say Mahler or Debussy. Do we sometimes get the wrong end of the stick when we read these markings? It's possible. In Brahms, when most people see "dolce" they slam on the brakes, whereas "dolce" is not a tempo indication per se. "Pianists say the "appassionato" indication justifies it. They certainly do say this! I've heard it time and time again.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: brycon
Date: 2020-06-16 19:26
Quote:
The question is whether this is an introduction or in fact the first subject. The excessive rubato is not needed when thought of as the first subject.
It is an introduction. It's melodically and harmonically open, ending on an implied Neapolitan that elides with the clarinet's entrance. It lays out the voice-leading and motivic cells that will be explored throughout the piece (scale degrees 5-6, scale degrees b2-1, the descent from scale 5, etc.). And, if you hear the clarinet sonatas derived from or growing out of the final chorale of Bach's St Matthew Passion (first suggested by a German musicologist whose name escapes me at the moment), it provides the clearest presentation of that material. In its brevity and sparsity, the introduction of the first sonata reminds me of that of the first movement of the 4th symphony, which Brahms, of course, decided not to use (but you can find this introduction reprinted in the Norton edition of the symphony).
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Hi John: I agree! How do you explain that pianists tend to play it like a recitativo? And protest when you ask them to play the first four bars in tempo?
I can't speak to any hypothetical interpretations of the opening.
But nevertheless, Brahms himself apparently played rather freely. He was reluctant to add metronome markings to his music and once said that, "I myself have never believed that my blood and a mechanical instrument go well together." Moreover, Fanny Davies's well-known reports of Brahms's playing confirm his dislike of a metronomic approach to tempo: "Brahms's manner of interpretation was free, very elastic, and expansive; but the balance was always there--one felt the fundamental rhythms [hypermeter or phrase rhythm???] underlying the surface rhythms."
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When Brahms wants something, he usually indicates it.
Not exactly. The nuance of performance extends far beyond what can be notated in a score (despite some modernist composers' attempts to fix completely performance to score).
I'll give one example from the music of Brahms. We know from Fanny Davies that hairpins were played by Brahms as a rhythmic nuance, a tenuto sort of stretching. Brahms's notation, however, asks us to increase then decrease volume or intensity. In other words, Brahms indicates something but because of a gap in his conception of the music and the available notational tools with which to convey this conception to the performer, he actually asks for something else.
I can't speak for Brahms, but the written accounts and near-contemporaneous recordings suggest a highly flexible approach to tempo, rhythm, and other performance nuances far beyond what's notated in a score. (Disclaimer: every performer and performance is unique; we should be cautious about drawing large inferences from a single performance.) This early recording of the quintet by Charles Draper, who is said to have heard Muhlfeld play the piece and is also said to have received Muhlfeld's praise for his own interpretation, is illustrative of this sense of flexibility: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3bwBpwDpMI&t=40s
Post Edited (2020-06-16 20:13)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-16 19:59
brycon: thank you for your very erudite arguments. Much food for thought here. There's nothing I like more than standing corrected, all the more so by somebody that has put more thought into the matter than I have and disposes of more scholarly equipment.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-06-16 20:36
>> This early recording of the quintet by Charles Draper, who is said to have heard Muhlfeld play the piece and is also said to have received Muhlfeld's praise for his own interpretation, is illustrative of this sense of flexibility. >>
Well, regardless of the putative accolades, I think this is execrable clarinet playing, even given the limitations of the recording techniques of the time.
Draper, to me, doesn't understand his rôle in the piece, which is sometimes to be an inner part and sometimes the leading voice. (That could be exacerbated by microphone balance problems, but is nevertheless a difficulty in his conception.) A good example is in bars 38/39, where the clarinet starts the melody on a high written Bb and then yields to the first violin an octave lower. Draper shows not an inkling of realising this. His notes are unremittingly sustained, and often locally out of synch with the strings in a careless way.
On this showing, I'd have kicked him out in the first round.
Tony
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Author: brycon
Date: 2020-06-16 21:34
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Well, regardless of the putative accolades, I think this is execrable clarinet playing, even given the limitations of the recording techniques of the time.
Sure, fair enough. But I don't post it as an exemplar of Brahms quintet interpretations or of clarinet playing in general. Rather it's something of historical interest and indicative of a way of playing that has largely fallen out of favor.
Also, perhaps it pushes back on things I frequently read here, such as: Quote:
Play it in tempo. If the first three notes aren’t played in tempo it gives me the same feeling as driving over a hump-backed bridge, it leaves my stomach in the air!
Many here think of their (good?) musical taste as the bourgeoisie think of their manners: the way things have always been and will always be, never questioning the modes of thought that give rise to such things. While you and a few others clearly question things, others are content to say, "Well, I heard Marcellus in a masterclass say play it this way, so that's the way it ought to be played." So perhaps pointing these people toward some different ways of playing will encourage them to think about their own approach.
Post Edited (2020-06-16 21:37)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-17 00:05
Brycon: Would the German musicologist you referred to be Schenker? (spelling?)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2020-06-17 00:44
Quote:
Brycon: Would the German musicologist you referred to be Schenker? (spelling?)
Certainly not Heinrich Schenker. I'm well read in Schenkerian theory and analysis, and, to my knowledge, Schenker never wrote about the Brahms sonatas.
But I tracked it down for you. The idea that the Brahms sonatas share tonal and motivic features with the Bach St Matthew Passion chorale was first put forth by the German clarinetist (not musicologist!) Rudolf Mauz in the article: "Passion des Johannes: Verborgenes Programm in der Sonata fur Klarinette und Klavier f-Moll Nr. 1 von Johannes Brahms."
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-06-17 02:15
>> So perhaps pointing these people toward some different ways of playing will encourage them to think about their own approach. >>
And of course I'm in favour of that here, though I don't hold out much hope. It's just a bit unfortunate that Draper falls at so many musical hurdles, though he does get better as the piece goes on.
The quartet are musically more interesting – when he gives them space to play their parts, and doesn't blindly rush ahead.
I have to say that the Op 120/Bach Chorale connection (which I've only heard about anecdotally) doesn't strike me as plausible. Does Mauz give any supporting evidence in his article?
Tony
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2020-06-17 02:44
Tony wrote: "I found it amusing to have the piano line in bars 7 and 6 from the end of the last movement pointed out to me for the first time just a few years ago..."
Thomas Friedli pointed that passage out to me during my studies with him and I was also delighted by it. Friedli was convinced that the two sonatas form one single work and cited the thematic concision of Op. 120 as proof of that. A wonderful example is bar 92 in the first movement of the Eb Sonata:
-The piano top voice plays the repeated 3-note motive (found in the opening theme of the final movement of the 1st Sonata and throughout that movement, as well as in bars 47-49 in the 2nd movement and subsequent repeats, bar 57 of the final movement of the 2nd Sonata, etc.)
-The clarinet plays material which seems to resemble the triplet figure starting at the upbeat to bar 78, but actually hides in it the "Bach Chorale" motive from the very opening of Nr. 1, here with the pitches B-E-D-C.
The condensed use of these different materials is partly what makes this climax so effective. The "Bach Chorale" motive can also be found in other places of the the 2nd Sonata, eg. Mov. 1 bars 73-77, first in the clarinet and the in the piano part.
And on and on...
The fact that such limit seems to be imposed on the material but the works have such limitless invention and logical flow never ceases to amaze me.
Ruben wrote: "dolce" is not a tempo indication.
In the Performance Practice Commentary to Op. 120 by Clive Brown and Neal Peres Da Costa in the 2015 Bärenreiter Edition, they write that: "Terms such as espressivo, dolce, ritardando, sostenuto, meno mosso, animato, con anima, calando, sotto voce carried particular implications for dynamic and agogic shadings, tempo, and sound colour."
Apparently Brahms and other 19th century composers understood hairpins to affect tempo as well as dynamics, so a slight slowing in bar 4 would actually be following what Brahms indicated. This slight slowing would only make sense if some level of momentum is built up in at least bar 3, so some tempo flexibility in the first 4 bars seems fully justified to me.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2020-06-17 03:00
Quote:
I have to say that the Op 120/Bach Chorale connection (which I've only heard about anecdotally) doesn't strike me as plausible. Does Mauz give any supporting evidence in his article?
Nope: there's no explicit reference to the Bach chorale in either the sonatas or any related documents.
But Brahms did use hidden quotations in his music as well as some not-so-hidden quotations of the St Matthew Passion in op. 122 chorale preludes.
Musically speaking, the link between the chorale and the Brahms is found in the opening bar of the chorale tune, which corresponds (transposed) to the first bar and a half of the sonata's piano introduction. More interestingly, however, the final three notes of the chorale tune--g, f, e--appear two other times in the chorale and with different tonal settings by Bach. This phrygian descent, clearly important in the Bach setting, are perhaps quoted in the final bar of the Brahms piano introduction (ab, gb, f). The gb is the crucial note of this opening, the Schenkerian compositional problem to be worked out, and gives rise to a great deal of the sonata's material. Regardless of whether Brahms intended the link, it's an interesting musical and expressive idea to consider.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-06-17 03:50
Thanks, you got me Tony. Of course players are equal in these Brahms Sonatas.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-17 15:32
Liquorice: Come to think of it, I do agree that "dolce" is a tempo indication...in the music of Brahms at any rate. Composers became more explicit and precise in their indications when they began using their own, native language to write them in, rather than the hitherto traditional Italian. PS: I'm glad I have introduced this as a new topic, because we've had so many interesting, well-informed comments here.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2020-06-17 18:41
Hi Ruben. Yes- I'm also glad you introduced the topic. It's nice to talk about music for a change :-)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2020-06-18 02:15
Quote:
It's nice to talk about music for a change :-)
Seconded!
(Though Ruben, if you want some more replies, be sure to put something about plastic reeds, new ligatures, or comparing clarinet brands in the original post.)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-06-18 09:19
Dear Brycon, For a subject that is purely musical, we got quite a few comments here, which delights me.
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