 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2020-06-08 05:17
I can play loud, but not in tune. Simply, I want to play very loud without going very flat. Tightening my embouchure to sharpen the pitch kills the sound (maybe I'm unconsciously biting).
I've seen posts about equipment such as The Doctor's Products Power Barrels, but I can't seem to find any for sale. Does anyone know what happened to them?
Anyways, I don't want to rely on equipment that much, I want to find more ways to play loud without going flat. I've tried 'sticking a cloth up the barrel', but even so I want to be louder! Btw, this is mostly for Marching & Jazz band.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-08 07:58
I had a power barrel for awhile. There is the notion that if you face one of the hole configurations forward, you emphasize the odd partials and get a louder sound. I never found that to be a real world advantage (though you can pick up some difference in sound one way versus the other. The difference is very very subtle).
I found much more POWER out of completely wooden barrels like the "fat boy" style or the the ones with wooden rings (like the John Weir EU barrel).
http://taplinweir.com/barrels/
However, you just gave your answer in your question. What will make you play louder without more lip pressure?
Answer: A shorter barrel.
You just need to relax more at softer volumes.
I'd try one at least 2mm shorter than what you have now.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-06-08 09:18
Air support will get you about as far as you are going to get here. There's probably some amount louder you could be with a well-supported airstream and (just) enough embouchure and voicing adjustment to keep the pitch up. Note that a well-supported airstream is different from blowing hard, though you'll probably need to do that as well.
For jazz band, you're going to need a microphone. A clarinet is never going to compete unamplified with a sax section, much less trombones, trumpets, drums, amplified bass, amplified guitar and probably amplified piano/keys. Someone will chime in about how the band should play softer, but that's just not how it works, in my experience. Ask for a mic and learn to use it.
I can't speak to what one should or shouldn't do in marching band, so I'll leave that to someone else.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-06-08 09:48
I'll make MAX S-D's prophecy come true. ;^)>>>
I understand what Max is saying, but I almost exclusively follow jazz, and seldom (very seldom) have I seen a clarinet mic'd - yet I hear them clearly. Good bands know how to play so that everyone is heard. It's a team effort, not a shouting match. Also, a good, round/full altissimo clarinet passage can cut right through most of the band unless the trumpets are trying to win a volume contest.
Perhaps different types of jazz would explain the differing experiences Max S-D and I have had.
I've always avoided mics unless I'm in the rare situation where they are absolutely forced on me by size of venue or other, but then you don't want to play loud, because the sound engineer can best set your levels at normal volumes.
A friend of mine plays saxophone, and back in high school bought a (I think it was) Claude Lakey mouthpiece with some type of "power chamber" (I know "power chamber" was the Dukoff phrase, so I'm sure the Lakey called it something different) - it was essentially a raised oval on the opposing side of the reed window (near the bottom of the window). He claimed it gave him lots of extra volume. In college he helped modify any number of other players' mouthpieces by putting a lump of poster tak in the same position, formed into an almond-shaped mound. The entire section played with that stuff during marching band and pep games. I never tried it, so I can't speak to its effectiveness, but perhaps (if it works at all) it might work on clarinet too? Again, I can't recommend it as I don't know what side effects poster tak in your mouthpiece would have on the health of either you or your mouthpiece/reed/clarinet. (One of the reasons I never tried it - the other is that I never had the urge to play loud.)
Best of luck in your search,
Fuzzy
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2020-06-08 14:09
I'll second the suggestion of Paul. Try to get a setup that enables you to play loud and in tune with. Probably you need a shorter barrel then. Try to achieve the volume with firm air support and not by embouchure. Then practice to play in tune also when playing soft...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-06-08 16:23
I won't speak to the equipment but I will say this. There's playing loud and there's overblowing. There are times that clarinet players, as well as the other woodwinds, are blasting at FFF in orchestra pieces, Mahler, Schostokovich, Tchaikovsky just to name a very few, and are "blasting" as loud as possible but are not playing flat. If that was the case those loud tutti sections would sound horrible. The art is to remain focused and supporting by playing as loud as possible but not "overblowing". Support, support, support.
As far as equipment goes, of course the mouthpiece, the reed, the barrel size and type can all be contributing factors but you should be able to play on the equipment you're confortable with and not go flat unless you're overblowing.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-06-08 20:33
Fuzzy,
I'm puzzled by your comments about jazz clarinet not being miked. I grew up in New Orleans listening to Al Hirt and his many jazz groups through the years, and in every one of his "swinging Dixie" bands, the clarinet was thoroughly and closely miked. This was true whether the clarinetist of the day was Pete Fountain (he played in a relatively fixed position with the bell pointing to the mike), Harold Cooper (he played with the tone holes about an inch from mike so even his occasional slap tonguing could be clearly heard), or Pee Wee Spittalera (he looked like he was milking the mike). I used to be a member of the New Orleans Jazz Club, and every band I heard at their gatherings miked the clarinetist (I distinctly recall Harry Shields in the Sharkey Bonnana band playing his Albert system clarinet cheek by jowl with the mike.) When Benny Goodman came to town (late 50s?) he blew straight into a mike. Everytime I have heard the modern jazz clarinetists Al Batiste and Frank Glover, they have shown their skill in playing through a mike. It seems to me correct to say that it is the classical players who are expected to match their clarinet sound to the surroundings in unamplified acoustic space. The classical players most often have not used a mike in live performances. I think I'll have to go with Max-SD on this question. Jazz flutists have universally agreed that they have to mike their instruments to be heard; ditto for jazz guitar. Maybe Sydney Bechet didn't need a mike back in the rough and ready days of street marching jazz, but that ability got him into trouble with trumpet players (like Armstong) who said they didn't need two people playing lead! Sometimes soft is better, but too soft and you're not heard, so use a mike. Band discipline is still important though, and the band will have to cut down when a flute, clarinet, guitar, or piano is taking a solo, even on a mike.
Post Edited (2020-06-09 06:59)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-06-08 23:50
This is interesting what I hear about jazz players vs classicial players being miked.
I'm on the classical side, never used or seen a classicial player using a mic at an ensemble or solo performance unless perhaps it was outside or being recorded. My point here is that that goes for "all classical" performers. Whenever we did opera, or arias or classicial songs with my orchestra with opera singers they never used a mic in our concert hall but when we did broadway or popular songs those singers always used a mic. You can see where I'm going, opera singers like classical trained woodwind players learn to project their sound so they don't need a mic under normal concert hall conditions.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2020-06-09 16:38)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-06-09 01:15
Seabreeze, as you know, I deeply respect you and your experiences. Sorry to have thrown you for a loop. I remember Pete describing the process as "riding the mic" so that the mic picked up all the notes evenly.
Perhaps I was in error, and have too narrow a scope in my own experiences.
However, today, many of the venues don't mic the front line. A fact easily observered in non-Bourbon Street clubs in New Orleans, where the clubs usualy mic vocals and un-amped string instruments, but seldom mic the front lines. Perhaps this is due to smaller venues, but I don't think it is - as even the buskers outside go unmic'd and the clarinetists are still easily heard over/among the louder brass.
Of course, if the venue demands that trumpets and trombones be mic'd - then the clarinet should be mic'd too.
I do feel that it is the band's job to play attentively - with or without mic. If I'm playing in a band and I'm not listening and not reacting to what the other musicians are doing - then I'm clearly not doing my job.
Here are just a few examples of unmic'd clarinets doing a swell job:
Craig Flory with Tuba Skinny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcL8dv-UkP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI3SUvDCH4s
James Evans with Shotgun Jazz Band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pubd91ctTQ4 (How about that Charlie Holloran on Trombone?!)
Evan Arntzen with Jon-Erik Kelso's EarRegulars (NYC):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueOM3ojVhCQ (For folks who haven't heard Evan Arntzen before - I highly recommend giving this one a listen.)
There's lots more - some with larger groups. At present I can't seem to find the ones I am looking for, but there's quite a bit out there to represent the point I was trying to make.
Again, perhaps my view is too narrow of scope, but I do feel it remains valid, afterall the OP didn't mention what type of jazz, how large the venue, etc.
At any rate, thanks for helping me re-evaluate my own perceptions and for sharing yet more of your own New Orleans experiences. Always enlightening and a joy to read.
Warmest regards,
Fuzzy
[Edit: changed "reacting" to "not reacting" for clarity]
Post Edited (2020-06-09 01:51)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-06-09 02:08
Thanks for introducing me to Craig Flory, James Evans, and Evan Arntzen. I haven't been keeping up with these later players of New Orleans jazz. I certainly think that very intimate jazz like Artie Shaw in the Grammercy chamber jazz group or Ed Hall in the celeste chamber group could probably do without a mike on the clarinet but I wonder if in actual live performances they did. Shaw was always well miked in his big band appearances and today Eddie Daniels has a miniature mike attached to his clarinet. There is no axiom governing any of this, but the clarinet is by nature one of the quieter instruments and if, like the other quiet instruments--flute, acoustic piano, acoustic guitar--a player feels they need a mike, there is no harm in giving them one.
Regarding my little experiences, Al Hirt played very powerful trumpet in the 50s and 60s, like Ziggy Elman or Conrad Gozzo on lead, and would have covered up just about any clarinetist--maybe even Bechet--if they didn't have a mike.
Post Edited (2020-06-09 02:17)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2020-06-09 02:52
Fuzzy, Tuba Skinny is awesome.
Observations: Solo clarinetists are miked all the time. That could not have been the case for small group and big band players in the teens and twenties. I would be very surprised if it were the case in the 30s and 40s, or even 50s. The old New Orleans clarinetists do not sound like classical players though - they sound like the players in the clips above. They sound to me to like they are playing with a lot of mouthpiece and a very loose embouchure, for max volume. The big band players sounded darker and more focused, but the bands didn’t feel the need to blast everything.
Today, amateur brass and drummers almost always play too loud in nearly all situations. Some drummers start playing and my head implodes from the shock. You get 4 or five guys on stage in a small room, and you have to wear earplugs in the audience. IMO a lot of this has to do with the influence of rock music, and the idea that everything needs amplified. It’s poor musicianship. As a clarinetist there’s only so much you can do to compete. A clarinet is a fairly loud instrument, objectively speaking, but not as loud as a brass section with a hernia.
Forget about being heard in marching band. IMHO it’s not worth the effort. Just look good, and project within reason.
In Jazz band though, do not hesitate to speak up. You should NOT need a mike for clarinet ensemble parts. I had a saxophone solo feature in HS. The brass were playing so loud in practice that I literally could not hear myself. I turned around in the middle of the tune and yelled “Shut up!” at the top of my lungs. I also told them they sounded great, but it was way too loud, and could they bring it back a notch. Not my finest moment, but I got some respect thereafter. LOL However, if you feel your FFF is not loud enough, they are WAYYY too loud, and it would not be out of place to respectfully but assertively say something during practice. You are doing everyone a favor. I assure you they are quite proud of the fact that no one can hear the woodwinds - that’s the whole point. They also know they are being stupid and juvenile. Ultimately they want to make good music, and be a band, so they’ll probably tone it down without argument.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-06-09 04:43
Matt74 wrote:
> Today, amateur brass and drummers almost always play too loud
> in nearly all situations. Some drummers start playing and my
> head implodes from the shock.
And yet the sound techs at school jazz competitions mic the drummers along with everyone else. (Sorry, it's a pet peeve!) They say they need to amplify the drums to control balance. I think all they're doing is making everything too loud. I would love to hear what the balance would sound like if they just turned off all the mics except maybe a solo mic and just let the instruments be acoustic. IMHO the band director ought to be balancing the sound, not the sound techs.
Of course, there would still be the problem of truly non-acoustic instruments - keyboards and electric guitars and bass guitars - that would have to be adjusted very differently from the ear-numbing wash of sound they usually lay down in most school jazz bands.
Karl
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-06-11 21:33
What happens 2 pitch when a single reed instrument is over blown?
This is what my college band director asked me.
I would advise u 2 get a HS Star mouth piece and a Vandoren 4 to 5 reed and when you can wail away in every register and not compromise pitch.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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