 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2020-04-29 13:34
In the final movement of K581, measure 105- the last measure of the Adagio section before the final Allegro, there is a high A (A6?) with a fermata. I have heard some recordings- can't place them now, that replace this long held note with a kind of short cadenza. Has anyone ever seen such a cadenza written out? Would anyone have input on how to play it?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-04-29 15:57
Well anything with the Concerto and the Quintet are dear to my heart. I've performed the Concerto a lot, and the Quintet maybe only 10 times.
A lot of players want to do something different to the pieces, often not written in the music. Sure go for it. These pieces are old! Also, Mozart was so far ahead of his time maybe he'd want it played differently anyway. David Shifrin I'm pretty sure was the first to record the pieces as written, with an extended A clarinet made just for him by Lenny Gullotta. (Spelling?)
Another example with the end of the 3rd movement of the concerto Stanley Drucker plays along with the orchestra, although there is nothing written in the clarinet part. I love that!
I'd say to have fun and FEEL the music. Don't get too crazy and change notes, but again have fun. It's 5 in the morning time for some sleep.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-04-29 17:02
It's not a cadenza, but rather an Eingang.
<oxfordmusiconline.com/grovemusic/view/10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.001.0001/omo-9781561592630-e-0000008649>
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-04-29 20:35
Hi rmk. I can't make that link work, but I think I found the page. Using markings in the K.595 piano concerto to illustrate, it describes an Eingang as initiating and providing an introduction to a phrase, while a cadenza embellishes a phrase's final harmonic progression. I suspect the line between those terms is rather fine.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2020-04-29 20:44
I tried the above link complete with < and > and could not connect. Tried again leaving out the < and > and it worked.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2020-04-29 21:07
Quote:
Hi rmk. I can't make that link work, but I think I found the page. Using markings in the K.595 piano concerto to illustrate, it describes an Eingang as initiating and providing an introduction to a phrase, while a cadenza embellishes a phrase's final harmonic progression. I suspect the line between those terms is rather fine.
A cadenza typically occurs near the end of a movement, once sufficient energy has been built up by the virtuosity of the solo part. Harmonically, a cadenza occurs on the cadential 6/4. The dissonant 6th and 4th above the bass's dominant then need to be resolved by the orchestra before a complete resolution of the dominant harmony can take place.
The eingang, by contrast, acts as a lead-in to a new phrase and occurs on an outright dominant harmony. Eingangs can appear throughout a movement. In a rondo, the final movement from Beethoven's c minor concerto, for instance, an eingang could occur during every refrain of the rondo theme.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2020-05-01 14:28
Many thanks everyone for your input.
I shall try to find the Pearson edition and see if I can pull off a celebrate-the-end-of-lockdown amateur rendition of this in a local venue with 4 willing string-playing friends.
Happy 1st of May to all, stay safe & well!
best wishes
Al
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2020-05-07 08:23
Paul Aviles wrote that the "cadenza" is in the Peters Edition. I can't find it in the clarinet part from the Peters edition on IMSLP. Perhaps there is something in the score (which is not on IMSLP) or a different (probably later) printing.
While there may certainly be others, the only written-out example of this engang that I could find in a quick search is on IMSLP in the copy of the score from the Neue Mozart Ausgabe. It appears in a footnote as a "Vorschlag zur Auszierung der Fermate" (proposal to decorate the fermata).
While cadenzas can be quite long and may rehash or rework much of a work's thematic material, eingangen should be relatively brief -- in some cases consisting of only a few notes. Almost certainly, the most famous example of an eingang from clarinetists' perspective appears in the second movement of Mozart's clarinet concerto. It has often been (incorrectly) designated in published editions as a "cadenza" and accompanied by a written-out suggestion. I daresay that some of the longer examples are not what Mozart would have expected.
In this case, however, I'm not sure this constitutes an eingang - especially if an eingang serves to introduce a phrase. It may simply be an invitation by Mozart to improvise an embellishment. My advice on how to play it would be keep it brief, straightforward and tasteful.
FWIW, my recollection is that Alan Hacker, the British clarinetist, was the first to record Mozart's concerto on a basset clarinet. He was certainly one of the first, if not the first, to create reconstructions of the concerto and quintet for basset clarinet. As for Stanley Drucker's playing along with the orchestra at the end of the Mozart Concerto (or Harold Wright's playing along with the orchestra at the beginning for that matter), I would argue that there actually is an indication in the music -- the parts are marked "tutti," "all" or "everyone" or "together" can, I think, be interpreted to include the soloist. Also, I think a better reason than Mozart's works are "old" or Mozart was "ahead of his time" for improvising ornaments in Mozart's works is that, based on performance practices of his day, Mozart would have expected it.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-07 09:17
Maybe I should ask, what cadenza are we talking about? I see the IMSLP measures to which I thought we referred, meas. 49 and 50 (the two meas. prior to letter D) of the Larghetto.
This is also often used as the "cadenza" marked as such at meas. 59 of the Clarinet Concerto (I'm looking at the Breitkopf and Hartel edition).
Or something else?
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-05-07 09:21)
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2020-05-07 12:01
Attachment: K581Fermata.png (64k)
I was referring to the end of the slow section of the 4th movement Theme & Variations. Picture attached now which should clarify. I'm sure I've heard recordings with "embellishments" of the highlighted/circled note. Just wondering if there's any printed version with these written out. Thanks everyone for your input. Stay safe & well!
Post Edited (2020-05-07 12:04)
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2020-05-07 12:15
Attachment: K581Auszierung.png (8k)
And voila, Jack has pointed me to what I was looking for- the footnote marked as "Vorschlag zur Auszierung der Fermate". I'll give this a go. Never seen this in print before, but I've heard it. I guess it's not a cadenza or Eingang but an "Auzierung". Learn something every day. Stay well!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-07 15:40
Ohhhhh......that.
Glad you got it. Yes that one not in Peters Edition
Sorry
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-09 21:47
Just listened to live stream of Berlin Philharmonic. The live beginning was Wenzel Fuchs featured playing the Mozart Quintet. He used many amazing rhythmic phrasing liberties....too many to mention. WONDERFUL!!!
The Cadenza to which we referred here was also interesting. He basically played the trill/turn figure that ends the piece in the strings and clarinet as a foreshadow rather than the printed figure above that we usually hear.
Just wonderful playing!!!!!
............Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-05-10 00:40
Wenzel Fuchs is a pretty phenomenal clarinet player, but he doesn't show much influence from Historically informed performance practise (ie, musicians who have gone to the bother of learning/discovering the appropriate style of the era the music was written in). Based on his performances of the Mozart clarinet concerto, he doesn't understand what an appoggiatura is, for example. Great chops though!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-10 02:17
Well there was a famously contentious exchange between Herbert von Karajan and Mstislav Rostropovich as they prepared for the performance/recording of Strauss' Don Quixote. Rostropovich apparently started playing his "character" as the tormented soul written by Cervantes. Karajan stopped the rehearsal and said, "You can't play like that, you must play beautifully."
I fall into the "play beautifully" camp.
For me, Wenzel Fuchs can do no wrong.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-05-10 04:35
I wonder how long after that they next performed together?
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-05-10 06:34
Though I like a lot of his recorded work, Karajan conducted some deadly dull concerto recordings.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-05-10 16:32
@ Paul...
"Maybe I should ask, what cadenza are we talking about? I see the IMSLP measures to which I thought we referred, meas. 49 and 50 (the two meas. prior to letter D) of the Larghetto."
It was made quite clear in the OP, if you had bothered to read it.
re "I fall into the "play beautifully" camp.", we weren't discussing whether or not to play beautifully, the discussion had touched upon classical era performance practice, and I was pointing out that Wenzel Fuchs often disregards what is known to have been appropriate style.
re "For me, Wenzel Fuchs can do no wrong." what are you, a teenager? Grow up.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-10 18:28
Donald,
Thank you for pointing to my error. The Mozart Quintet misunderstanding is a perfect example of letting my prior experiences and lack of attention become a perfect storm of....stupid.
I apologize.
However, the Wenzel Fuchs issue is not entirely off the mark. I don't think we should discount wonderfully musical interpretations based solely on some concept of what is technically, or historically (or any other way) considered incorrect.
If you take the time to listen to the Mozart Quintet rendering from Saturday evening I'm sure you'd agree.
and............ no, I don't think I'd appreciate being a teenager again.
..................Paul Aviles
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