 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-12-19 14:43
I'd be a lot more inclined to try them out if they didn't have that tacky looking logo printed on the front (yes, I KNOW that it doesn't matter what it looks like but that is NOT a classy logo).
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2019-12-19 17:20
NOTE 1/29/21
This thread is completely out of date.
I am now producing ALL of my mouthpiece blanks using my own in house printer farm. After a year of research, I found I could produce blanks with measurements as good as a service bureau, and I had far better control in the process and greater access to various materials.
Also, my turnaround on prototypes was hours, not days or weeks!
Right now I am having a great time and producing excellent mouthpiece. Over 500 to date!
More later!
Walter Grabner
************************************************************
The process of imprinting it on the design of the mouthpiece blank was fascinating, if not a bit arduous.
The point of the logo is that the identifier "Grabner" is my actual signature.
The process went like this:
I wrote my name on a piece of paper using my best handwriting. This was no mean feat since my actual handwriting is almost illegible!
We then scanned the piece of paper to make a common jpg file. To use the image in a CAD program, we had to convert the jpg file to a svg file. Svg files are used in CAD programs for adding text and logos to three dimensional shapes within the CAD program.
In the program, you must size and center the logo directly over where you want the logo to appear. Then using an "extrude" command you must wrap the text/logo around the geometry of the part. The CAD program uses Boolean logic to map and wrap the logo exactly where you want it to go.
Since you are actually inscribing the logo into the part, you must determine the depth to which you want it recessed from the surface.
All of this is pretty arcane CAD processing and took me hours how to figure it out and get it done.
The cool thing is that my actual signature appears on every mouthpiece and barrel I make. I know I could have made a far slicker logo, using expensive graphics software, but this is exactly what I wanted.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
Post Edited (2021-01-29 15:58)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2019-12-19 18:45
I think it looks great. An artist’s signature in gold.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2019-12-19 19:49
I wouldn't care if my new HiTech mouthpiece had orange neon stripes and glitter on it.
I switched to Walter's mouthpiece after fifteen years playing a mouthpiece that I swore would have to be pried from my cold, dead embouchure before I'd give it up. His was that much better for me.
I can't imagine why the appearance of a logo would keep a serious player from trying any mouthpiece.
B.
Post Edited (2019-12-19 19:53)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-12-19 19:58
Walter, you need to work on your handwriting. Ever try a fountain pen?
:-)
................Paul Aviles
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Author: jeeves
Date: 2019-12-19 20:33
Walter, do the 3D printed pieces require more hand finishing than the machined pieces? In the description of the 3D printing technique here, they say that the tolerances on parts are 0.3-0.4mm; is that about the same precision as machining?
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-12-20 00:14
I'm sure they are great barrels, and I knew that comment would make me unpopular- but here's the facts. If I buy one or two of those barrels and decide to sell them no one will want them because they don't look very professional. They look like a product for school kids. I've also had this problem with the Ridenour hard rubber barrels- if they were just plain they would be easier to sell, but the big logo makes it look very much like a unsophisticated student product.
There are of course variations in taste and expectation, but I imagine you also have colleagues who won't say this to your face because they're being nice.
(Sometimes I buy stuff and like it, but sell it as I also like barrels I already own. Sometimes I buy stuff to test it out before I recommend it to students/other professionals. I also think the manufacturing process here is great- easing up issues of stock, prototypes etc. That's all GREAT, my comment only refers to the logo)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2019-12-20 00:19
Typical 3D printing, using even a very good tabletop printer, still is limited to tolerances in tenths of a millimeter. We are talking here about machines that cost under $5000.
These kinds of tolerances are obviously no good for mouthpiece work. All facing are measured in hundredths of a mm. For example a mouthpiece with a tip of say 1.13, means exactly one and thirteen hundredths of a millimeter.
However, my mouthpieces are NOT printed on this class of machine. The very expensive ($250,000 and up) machines used by my business partner, Fast Radius, guarantee tolerances in the hundredths of a millimeter. We are working hard to get it down to no more than one hundredth of a millimeter.
We are pushing the envelope. We knew that when we started. It is very exciting to be involved in this new evolution in mouthpiece manufacture.
Also, we will be introducing some additional materials in 2020. Stay tuned, it will be a wild ride.
I'll be glad to answer any questions. Fire away!
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
Post Edited (2019-12-20 00:21)
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2019-12-20 00:49
Hi Walter. Do you have any plans to produce a bit more open, longer facing bass clarinet mouthpiece along the lines of a Vandoren B50? It seems as if there are many non-classical, new music and improvising bass players using this mouthpiece currently.
Post Edited (2019-12-20 01:10)
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Author: jeeves
Date: 2019-12-20 03:02
Thanks for the info, Walter! I didn't realize industrial-grade 3D printing was that precise. Do you have to do any hand finishing at all, or are most of the mouthpieces you get from Fast Radius ready-to-play?
@Dan Shusta: I had read that page, but it was ambiguous as to whether Fast Radius produced parts with tolerances on the order of hundredths of a millimeter, or whether they were produced to within tenths of a millimeter (as described on their Carbon DLS info page) and then required further finishing to get within hundredths of a millimeter.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2019-12-20 04:54
Industrial 3d printing is getting more precise by the day, and my business partner does a great job in getting product to me.
However, there is still play-testing, hand finishing and dressing of surfaces to get to the final end product! Humans are not obsolete yet!
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2019-12-20 15:40
I’ve tried these new mouthpieces here in London. Whilst they’re not for me personally, I can tell that they’re excellent mouthpieces and the colleague I was with at the time purchased one and she sounds fantastic on it! Perhaps the loss of Zinner blanks is the best thing to happen to Walter and his mouthpieces!
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2019-12-22 09:01
Just sent a new “improved” batch to Howarth, with slightly deeper chamber and lower baffle. You might want to stop in again. When you do, say hello to Olivia. She’s the best!
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2020-01-09 02:55
I went to Howarth in London to try these mouthpieces. I asked for the latest ones Walter had sent “slightly deeper chamber and lower baffle”. I was given those with serial numbers 304 and 348 to 351, so five mouthpieces.
As with Morrigan, these mouthpieces were not for me, mainly because the lays were relatively short at around 16+mm. I found it hard to assess the merits of these mouthpieces when they fundamentally didn’t suit me.
However, there were two things I found surprising about these mouthpieces. Firstly, the general surface finish is quite rough, but not so on the lay though. Nothing like high polish on the Vandorens or the dull matt/smooth finish on some other recent CNC models - Hawkins/Backun or D’Addario Evolution. This must be a design choice but I’m not so sure it’s a good one as it could be taken as a poor finish. Of course a rougher texture has advantages as it gives a better grip for the ligature, especially if using particular types of ligature and/or for thinner synthetic reeds.
I didn’t see a lot of evidence of hand finishing on the lays. On most of them I could see the pattern of machining from heel to tip rail. This suggests machining is achieving the required accuracy and finish.
The second surprising thing about all the mouthpieces was the width of the lay - approx. 15mm. This compares to the 13mm of an average cane reed, so leaves around 1mm of rail on either side of the reed. I didn’t measure the slot so can’t say what the effective width of the rails might be. I’d be interested to know why Walter chose to go with this design feature, especially since Fobes, Behn, Vandoren and many others go for far narrower (more ‘traditional’?) rails.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2020-01-09 12:22
I like the logo. Nowadays people are more often using the non metallic ligatures which don't tend to scratch or even more importantly accidentally damage the tip of the mouthpiece. A logo on a mouthpiece can probably last a long time and even be renewed.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-01-09 17:35
I read with interest the comments made by JTJC, and I would like to provide a few clarifications.
I think inherent in these comments above, is an assumption that my mouthpieces should feel and look like all the other mouthpieces on the market, and have basically the same design features.
I will state right here that although I have the greatest respect for other makers, I am trying to make something different and hopefully in some ways better. Why should we all make the same product?
In terms of the finish, I don't care if the mouthpieces are bright, shiny, and extremely smooth. In terms of HOW THEY SOUND, the exterior appearance makes no difference. Since the material I am currently using will never buff up to a smooth shiny surface anyway, I have let the material and the process decide the outer surface. I believe that what I provide is quite pleasant and suitable (and kind of fun).
After six months use, most mouthpieces look like something the cat threw up anyway, so I don't think a lot of effort in that direction makes a lot of sense.
In terms of finishing the facing curve, that is another matter. I do only enough hand finishing to get the response and tone that I want. No more, no less. The easiest way to make mediocre mouthpieces is to hand finish too much and try to make every single mouthpiece the same.
In terms of the width of the tip and side rails I will admit to a lot of thought and experimentation. As many of you know, I have become quite impressed by the Legere Signature European Cut reeds. In my experience, the tone and response of these reeds is enhanced by the wide side rails, that JTJC is reporting.
If you want the mouthpiece to work, and optimize, the use of both conventional cane reeds and Legere European Cut reeds, you then have a design issue to confront. There has been a lot of comment on these reeds here, both positive and negative. I believe that Legere has finally come up with a reed that is in most important ways, better than cane. I have found I can make some design changes in my mouthpiece to further enhance the performance of these reeds. Currently I am making a "wider than normal" side rail, as I feel this adds stability which is beneficial to the use of the Legere European cut reeds. Will I continue with this or not is still not clear to me.
I may wind up with mouthpieces that are specifically only for Legere vs cane. I would prefer not to, but we shall see what the market wants.
Friends, I am only one year into this journey, and many things might change. But I assure you that I am not trying to make the same mouthpiece as it has been made for the last one hundred years. There are some that think the best mouthpieces were made 30 to 50 years ago, and everything that needs to be discovered has been discovered.
I simply think that with new materials and new methods we might be able to eke some additional performance out of what I consider to be the most important clarinet accessory.
I am open to all questions and comments.
Thank you.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-01-09 18:04
Will you be able to play the Ginastera Variaciones Mvt #4 with a Legere on an A clarinet?
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-01-12 18:16
I just listened to a fabulous recording of the Ginastera with Johnny Fong, principal clarinet with the Hong Kong Sinfonietta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaGnq75_zfg
If you are asking if I could play this on a Legere European Cut reed, I would answer that I would be lucky to be able to play it (at least this well) on any reed!
Do you have a more specific concern?
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-01-12 18:47
My playing often goes up there and I have never found any non-cane reed to get there. It is not my mouthpiece or embouchure either because even my softer cane reeds play there and beyond.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2020-01-12 19:14
That’s too bad, Ken. In my experience, the Legeres will allow you to play in the stratosphere easier, once you’ve taken the time to nail down your setup and get used to them.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-01-12 20:34
Walter G, here are the parts if you want to practice them.
There are easier fingerings on the A clarinet but then it ends on a 'D'.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-01-14 02:35
Answer - basically, yes. On the Bb, didn't try the A.
Setup: Grabner Hi Tech S2C mouthpiece. Legere Signature European Cut #4.
Also got to the C# on a 3 3/4, which surprised me.
For the sake of security, I would probably want to use a 4 1/4, but I don't have any of those here right now.
Walter
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2020-02-17 17:28
We got a little side-tracked on some other issues and lost our focus on the discussion about the material that I am using for my new mouthpieces.
Well, as it turns most of the customers love it and it is has become a non-issue. The depth and richness of the tone comes through easily with this material.
I like the material so much that I am also using it for barrels, and my newest project, bells.
A customer sent me an e-mail discussing the tone, response and flexibility of the new mouthpiece (and of course the new material). If it is too "salesy", please skip it. It does, however, describe my approach to mouthpiece making, better than I have ever managed:
www.clarinetxpress.com/clientemail.html
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644
Post Edited (2020-02-17 17:34)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2021-01-01 01:33
Attachment: 100_1649.JPG (465k)
Attachment: 100_1647.JPG (900k)
A few weeks ago I ordered one of Walter Grabners's new Hi Tech mouthpieces, a "White Velvet" for bass clarinet. It showed up in a few days and the first thing I wanted to know is whether my Bonade Inverted ligature would fit, and it did. Then I took out some of my other mouthpieces just to do visual comparisons. The interior geometry looked an awful lot like my Fobes CF and with rather crude measuring devices I tried to compare facing curves and tip openings. It still seemed similar to the Fobes, but my eye isn't calibrated to thousandths. The next question — "How does it play?" I started with a Legere Classic 3½ which I use on my Fobes. (All the reeds discussed here are Legeres.) It was not a good match, seeming stiff with an airy sound.
Next I tried a 3½ Tenor Sax Studio Cut. This was better but still seemed a bit stiff. A 2½ Classic B.C. was too soft, although the tone quality was very nice. Next I tried a 3 Tenor Sax Studio Cut. This was getting close, although still a mite soft. I had a couple of Tenor Sax Signatures, a 2¾ and a 3 — they were stuffy. So I decided to concentrate on the Studio Cut 3 for now. I'd really be interested in the new B.C. European Cut as the rails on the mouthpiece are made wide for those reeds but they're $45 and, well, it'll happen, but not right away.
One thing I noticed is that, never having had a white mouthpiece before, it was almost impossible to distinguish where the tip of the reed is, and tip placement is critical on Legere reeds. I relied on a magnifying glass for a few days and then decided to try something else. Taking a black Sharpie, I drew a very small line across the inside of the tip. (See attachments) This worked very well. I'll also mention that the tenon was not a snug fit and I've had to bulk it up with Teflon tape. Walter said he corks them to fit tightly in a Buffet socket, so when I take my 33 to my tech I'll have him recork it to fit the Selmer.
The White Velvet is about 3 gr heavier than the Fobes. As JTJC and Walter discuss, the finish on this piece is different from the smooth surfaces we're used to seeing. Even in the chamber the laser milling is evident. I expect that the mouthpiece will look pretty beat in a few months as the white surface picks up smudges and ligature marks. I'm not one of those people who wash, iron, and fold their swab or polish the hardware on their case, and I don't mind if my equipment shows use. I've admired the mirror finish on some metal sax mouthpieces, and the grained ebonite of others but as Walter emphasizes, the important thing is how they sound.
This piece plays beautifully over the whole range of the instrument. I'm still adjusting to the slightly softer reeds I'm using — I'm used to playing with more resistance so control in the altissimo is critical or it can sound shrill. But it's a pleasure to use. The sound is rich and resonant. I think Walter's done a fine job with these and I expect we'll be seeing, and hearing, more of them as the word gets out and things begin to open up again.
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The Clarinet Pages
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