 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jeeves
Date: 2019-12-12 21:05
Despite doing long tones religiously, I can only sustain an open G at mf for about 16 seconds and a clarion long B for about 12 seconds. I'm using an M13 Lyre with a Legere European 4, which I think is a reasonable pairing resistance-wise.
It seems like most other people can sustain for about twice as long as this, so I'm wondering, is there something wrong with my setup, do I just have poor lung capacity, or something else?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-12-12 22:13
Firstly the strength of reed you use seems high to me. My facing/opening comes down to similar reed interaction (shorter facing of 14mm but 1.00 opening) and I use 3 1/4 Legere European Signature. You may not be taking in enough mouthpiece for your "system."
But I don't necessarily see too much trouble with your timing. I have students do long tone (cresc for eight counts around "quarter =54," then dim. for eight counts in one go) and you do that twice on low E, F, F# and G. By the time you finish this you feel as though you've run around the block several times! The length of time for that exercise is easily in your wheelhouse.
This should get you through any standard phrase but you may consider trying to develop circular breathing if you wish to develop more sustained length of "output."
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-12-13 01:05
You may have to use too much air to drive a #4 Legere on a M13L. I use 3-1/2 to 3-3/4 Euros on mouthpieces similar to that one, but every mouthpiece is different.
Other things you could check are your posture and the angle of your mouthpiece to your chin.
If you're timing yourself sitting, make sure your back is straight and not slouched. Slouching can actually cost you some lung capacity. A correctly positioned back has a slight inward curvature ("lordosis") in the lumbar (lower back) region. Letting the lower spine round outward (as it does when you slouch against the back of a chair) can cause back strain and compress the abdominal area that your lungs need to expand into. I find it can make a real difference in the phrase length I can produce.
If your mouthpiece is too far away from your chin (closer to a right angle), you may find that the reed vibrates more efficiently (and you use less air to drive it) with the mouthpiece (and, consequently, the clarinet) closer to you. The mouthpiece/instrument angle is personal and depends somewhat on your dental structure, but you want the angle that gives you the most physical comfort and best resonance and response.
Karl
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2019-12-13 23:08
You didn't mention (and for some reason, nobody asked) if you're just running out of breath or you need to breathe because you're out of oxygen.
Would be helpful to know.
B.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-12-14 01:25
Paul Aviles wrote:
> That's the same thing.
It's the difference between the lungs being empty and still having oxygen-depleted air in them, usually from taking lots of catch breaths and not getting rid of the stale air first.
Karl
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Author: jeeves
Date: 2019-12-14 01:50
I'm having trouble air volume, not with oxygen depletion/co2 buildup.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-12-14 03:08
The original description seems to indicate that you grab an ideal breath with maximum volume and get about 16 seconds of positive pressure out of it. On the face of it I stand by the assertion that that amount of time seems pretty normal. Perhaps there are some breathing exercises that you can do. You could start with an "incentive spirometer" to see where you are at and do some remedial training with it.
As for the idea that you can build up oxygen depleted air in your lungs while playing......YES! I encourage students to make taking a breath a quick two step process. When you go to take a breath, do a quick expulsion of what air you have left in your lungs first, and then follow that with a quick full breath. My tack is to always take a full breath, that way you are not constantly trying to calculate whether or not you've taken as much air as you need for the situation.
Finally, keep in mind that you'll get the most efficient, quick, direct airstream (what you want) with your tongue in the forward position (in the position as if you're saying "EEEEE"). The "Ahhhh" position is self defeating.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2019-12-14 07:47
I've "aaaahed" my whole life, and I ain't stopping now. :-)
B.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-12-14 19:20
This probably doesn't matter. Are you sitting or standing? Maybe try a tad softer reed? 3 3/4? The reed may be a tad bit too hard so you are using more air, but you may want to see a pulmonologist (lung specialist,) just to be sure nothing is going on. I think 30 to 45 seconds might be average for long tones if you are playing P. If you are going from p<F>p well 20 seconds may be accurate.
Can you post yourself playing long tones? Often we can tell what's going on from hearing your sound.
Lastly, have you had your horn checked for tiny leaks?
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: jeeves
Date: 2019-12-14 23:29
Attachment: long tones.mp3 (1121k)
I have the issue whether sitting or standing, and playing long tones p instead of mf only buys me a couple seconds. I had a 3.75 Legere lying around and tried that, but it didn't help much.
I don't think it's a leak issue, since I have the issue on open G (I tried pressing down the register pad, A/Ab pads and side trills while playing open G to help eliminate those pads as culprits).
I attached a clip of me trying to play open G and long B for as long as I could around mp, with a Legere 3.75.
Post Edited (2019-12-14 23:33)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-12-14 23:56
It's hard to tell from the recording how softly you're actually playing. The G is pretty meaty sounding on my computer. Can you sustain G any softer?
On the other hand there's a fair amount of air in the sound of your B - that's air that's wasted and not driving the reed. Assuming there's no leak from the instrument (you don't mention if you've checked that), the air in the tone suggests resistance in either the reed or the mouthpiece, or you're exerting too little pressure to make the reed vibrate efficiently. None of those may be problems when you're actually playing, because many players will accept a certain level of air noise at very soft dynamics so long as it isn't audible to the audience. But the lack of efficiency at pianissimo may affect what you're trying to test, which is in a way an artificial condition.
If you have a teacher, he or she would be in the best position to suggest improvements. In any case the overarching issue shouldn't really be how long you can hold a soft long tone. The real issue is whether or not you're running short of air for phrases that other players around you can manage more easily.
Karl
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Author: jeeves
Date: 2019-12-15 00:07
I was playing pretty close to the mic, so it sounds a lot louder than it actually is.
I don't think the instrument is leaking, unless there's a really bad leak in the top of the upper joint, since I can't play an G that much longer than a long B.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-12-15 01:17
I agree with the assessment above that there is far too much air (grit, noise) to TONE ratio. Though a lot of great players can sound gritty up close and this may even add to the color at a distance, though it sounds here as if the tone production could just be a lot more efficient.
If you did come down a quarter strength between your original post and the recording (which in the Legere world is A LOT), I'd say you need to bring that strength down more than that. Just try a 3 1/4 and see what happens. You can get the same "resistance" by taking in the max mouthpiece before you lose control of the sound. And at that point you'll find every register will speak without undue adjustment.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2019-12-19 09:59
Reed too stiff for that MP, IMHO (unless you bite ... and Legere reeds don't like being bitten and warped) ... my M13-lyres are somewhat resistant too. Try a 3.25 European Signature.
Tom
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2019-12-21 13:45
More lip pressure - less air = longer sustained note
Less lip pressure - more air = shorter sustained note
If you want to get longer sustained notes, you must tighten your embouchure and blow less air. And you need to check that your inhaling technique is proper. Try to inhale as much as you can and concentrate in a spot about two inches below your bellybutton. And do this exercise every time you remember it. For the rest of your life! You are not able to control the amount of air flow if you aren't inhaling properly.
But don't apply the lip pressure by biting the mouthpiece with your jaw muscles. Put your finger in your mouth and squeeze it with your lips, don't bite it. Those are the muscles you should use in your embouchure, not those that put your teeth together.
While playing a sustained note, try to wiggle the mouthpiece in your mouth from left to right. If your teeth grip the mouthpiece so hard that it makes the wiggling impossible, you are biting.
If you success in wiggling but the sound gets unclear, windy etc, your reed is too hard for you (for the time being). On the other hand, if the sound is too reedy, thin, metallic, the reed is too soft.
By the way, a funny way to practise controlled air flow is to take a one dollar note (or where ever you live, credit card doesn't work) hang it in front of your face and blow the bottom end of it. Try to blow so, that it stays in the same angle and doesn't flip back and forth.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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