 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jura82
Date: 2019-10-15 11:44
Hello, I'm an amateur clarinetist from small European country (Croatia), but I play clarinet for 27 years. During this period, I've tried a lot of clarinet mouthpieces - almost all from Vandoren range - from M13lyre to 5JB. I play in amateur wood/brass orchestra.
My personal experience, and for my mouth end embouchure are mouthpieces in range - tip opening between 1.20 - 1.30mm. Currently I play on Daddario X25e with reeds 3 - 3.5 Tranditional Vandoren Bluebox. This mouthpiece can take a lot of air and has a very powerful and big sound - maybe not for legit playing, but for playing good forte for marches and polkas or waltzes. But this mouthpiece demands very strong embouchure and endurance and after few hours playing on it, my chops feel like boxing. :D
So, last year I bought M15 - this is closed mouthpiece with tip opening 1.03mm. It is a tipical mouthpiece for legit playing - very sweet and focused sound and I can play a whole day on it without tiring my lips. It is very easy to play piano and altissimo on it. But it also has a volume limit - forte is limited and sometimes I feel like I'm chocking on it. I play with 3.5 Vandoren on it. Trying harder reeds felt even worse - headache and back pressure. I have a feeling like this mouthpiece can't take all the air I'm putting in.
So, do you think that closed mouthpiece are for lazy people? Because, on more open mouthpiece I need to work harder, but getting much more dynamics and fatter sound. On closed one, I get focused tone but with limit to dynamic. What do you think?
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Author: Juanzen
Date: 2019-10-15 13:55
I think it depends, I used to play on an M15 myself and it was very free blowing essentially, I needed very hard reeds so it had the amount of resistance I wanted from it(4 1/2 or so)
in my case it was the opposite of what you mention, I was able to throw a lot of air at it and my sound would not break(forte was easy) piano maybe it is due to my skill but it did not work as I wanted.
testing around now I play a more open mouthpiece, behn epic(3 reeds) and I find that my sound quality is much better. However, I need to be much more careful on my dynamics, if I just throw air at it I stop sounding like a clarinet and a lot of things I used to get away with I cannot do anymore. I mean this in a good way, I can finely control my sound now, before I didn't have control over it as such.
I would not say X or Y setup is for lazy people, we are all different what is "easy" to play for someone might be bad for someone else so I doubt there is a one size fits all answer for this case. I know players that make a sound I wish I could on a 5RV, this is not a diss on 5RV, different people need to play on different equipment in my opinion.
I think if that closed set up works that well for you, you should just stick with it instead of thinking "does this makes me lazy" or other things.
your goal is to make music not to think about clarinet issues all the time.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-15 14:06
If you are tired and you feel pressure well your sound will surely suffer. The sound collapses from the weak embouchure muscles. Most of the German players use mouthpiece tip openings under 1.00mm and softer reeds, usually under 3 strength. Yes folks this is Generally. Of course not everyone. Don't rag on me. The great Sabine Meyer uses her own reeds made by Steuer, 2 1/2 strength usually and the tips of these German reeds are thick. About 3 times thicker than a Vandoren V12 tip. Her mouthpiece is well below 0.95mm. But needless to say she sounds just fine in any hall, as her sound projects so well.
Then we have the great jazz player Eddie Daniels who plays on a 1.03mm tip opening and his sound can fill any hall.
To be fair here I strongly feel if you can't play about 3 hours without taking a break, because your lips and your embouchure is too sore, to dead to go on the tip opening is wrong. You don't have have to have a tip opening of an alto sax, which 1.20 and above is becoming very close to an alto sax, in some cases it is an alto sax opening. However, the sax reeds are less resistant of course and a totally different cut.
I must also add that sweet sound you are looking for probably will be lost forever. You will just have that everyday standard sound which everyone has in community bands and that's OK with sore lips and maybe comes bloody lips if you play really hard and fast music requiring articulation madness.
I've played in huge halls such as Orchestra Hall in Chicago and outdoors. I use maybe 1.04mm's to 1.05 tip openings and the projection is just fine, because of the design of the mouthpiece. We need the the mouthpiece to Ping and Ring. See, a lot or actually very few mouthpieces ping and ring. The worst mouthpieces are the Zinners and the Vandoren 88 profiles such ass the M series. The ping and ring is what carries the sound not the tip opening. Think about this ...
For example, a hose 3 feet wide with water going through it won't go very far. Maybe 2 feet at best. But a small 1 inch water hose may project 30 feet. Air works the exact same way.
I feel the best mouthpieces, based on 40 years of research, the ideal tip openings are between 1.03 to 1.09, depending on the formation of the mouth cavity of the person. Also of course is the mouthpiece design.
I get idiots call me wanting mouthpieces with tip openings at 1.30mm's. I won't make them because I already know they have the worst possible sound ever. Bigger tip opening is not better, it gravely worse. When people want the Vandoren BD5's tip openings which are around 1.13mm tip openings I send them 1.08 tip openings with a reed to match the mouthpiece. After they play the mouthpiece they freak out. See the problem is a cross between finding that great reed to match the great mouthpiece. They now have an amazing sound which can be heard anywhere and even when playing softly the sound projects.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-15 14:25
Bob,
your assessment on German mpcs is pretty much on point. I do know people who with their Viotto N1 (1mm, but already a true classic) play on pretty hard reeds, but facings used to be smaller. Nowadays, there’s a trend towards longer and more open facings, and you’ll find more and more players using a Boehm mpc on their German clarinet.
Your tip opening recommendation seem a bit strict, but that‘d be something I prefer, too. Too large openings, even with softer reeds, tend to be way too exhausting. Admittedly, my main concern nowadays is wether or not the mpc works well with a Legere reed.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-15 15:46
Dear "Kalashnikirby,"
The German set-up is a small tip opening (many smaller than 1.00mm) AND a long facing, paired with a relatively soft reed of strength 2 1/2. Bob mentioned that the reed tip is thicker than a French reed and I believe that is true. Their 2 1/2 strength may actually be closer to our #3 reed.......but it is a relatively easy reed...NOT hard, the opposite of HARD.
That is the standard German approach.
Now, not having known that years ago, I played on a pair of Wurlitzer 100Cs with a pretty standard German facing Wurilitzer M3+ mouthpiece, however I incorrectly was using #4 and #5 reeds. I never got the right sound and struggled with making things work until I just gave up (13 years later). You CAN use the wrong strength reed (wrong for the style and approach that is) but that doesn't make it right......at all.
It is important to point out at this juncture in the discussion that the mouthpiece/reed system functions ONLY as the ACTUATOR for the sound. The amount of air you blow is NOT germane to either the tone or your maximum dynamic. What IS creating the sound you hear is the air column already in the horn that your mouthpiece/reed system sets in motion.
Think about it folks. Tuba players use as much air as a piccolo player (and either is about as loud as the other at their max). Look at the aperture size of an oboe reed. Do they have a problem projecting or playing as loud as either of them or a clarinet?
So let's just say for argument that you follow what I'm getting at. Given that you don't need to blow a massive amount of air to achieve a resonant sound or a massively loud dynamic, it only follows that it is much more helpful to have a set up that allows you to play for as long as you like without feeling any undue discomfort or fatigue.
To answer the original poster I'd say that small tip openings are for those who want a career as a professional classical clarinet player. You can achieve a classical sound and still be fine endurance wise with more open set-ups if you use softer reeds. However, at some point I find the need to consciously control both pitch and timbre increases substantially the more open you go, and there is a point where that becomes untenable for classical playing.
If you are speaking more of jazz, folk, etc., the larger tip opening set-ups can make some of the styles of sound and vibrato much easier. But again, you pair that with a softer reed so that endurance is not an issue.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-10-15 16:31
Bob makes some great points. It is the focus, core and ring that helps a sound project. Sometimes I have heard players go to very open mouthpieces and then struggle with endurance and control and still have problems with projection as the sound can sometimes become more diffuse depending on the mouthpiece design.
For those who think a closer tip mouthpiece won't project, consider Stanley Drucker. He did not play a huge mouthpiece, yet had no problems over the NY Phil in Avery Fisher, which does not have great acoustics.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2019-10-15 17:09
I've been using a Selmer C85 115. Medium open tip, and medium long lay.
Also a factor is the size of the internal chamber and width of window- gives a great fortissimo! All allows for a free blowing and reed friendly mouthpiece which importantly for me minimises back pressure- my palate and sinuses can't cope with more than 20 minutes of playing a closed facing. Not a perfect mouthpiece but after years of shopping around, what is working best for me at the moment.
good luck everyone!
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-15 17:12
Dear “Paul” (come on, by now you know my name is Christian),
I‘ve been „them“ for 10 years until I switched to a Buffet and come into contact with German System Players and Makers pretty often. Because I live in Germany. I‘m well aware of the characteristics of German MPCs and my only point was that some tend to use way too hard reeds... like you did, apparently. I do otherwise agree with you, but am a little irritated by that lecture of yours.
And as I’ve said, there is a trend towards slightly larger openings, which „back in the day“ would’ve been unimaginable. At the same time, it’s true that many pro mpcs have openings as small as 0,85mm.
For some reason, since Nick renamed their mpcs, there’s no info on their facings anymore. Many pros play them...
The old D1 and D2 used to be ABOVE 1mm. According to some, all they did was a renaming, not a redesign.
Post Edited (2019-10-15 17:16)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-15 17:27
Well I go by your handle. If you want to be Christian maybe you should change your "Board" handle.
My lecture is more of a "clarification," and a clarification for the general audience. I wouldn't want those reading the post to misfire on what a good, traditional German set up represents.
No offense meant.
That said, even the clarinet players of the Chicago Symphony did not get it right when they embarked on the challenge to play Oehler system horns for Mozart and Mahler (not really by choice from what I hear). Of course they were in the precarious situation of having to switch back and forth from system to system. That asks for changing your embouchure and approach to playing (and they settled on a mouthpiece/reed combo that was close to what was already comfortable) as well as fingering..........not really practical.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-10-15 17:48
Biggest eye opener I had was when I tried Zukovsky’s Wurlitzer German clarinet. I was familiar with the warm German sound but had never tried one before. It was incredibly easy to play while still being very focused. I remember shortly after sending my BD5 to Bernardo to close it up and make things easier. I also thought you needed a wider tip opening in order to have the necessary tonal presence. What I found is that after he worked on it and closed up the tip to about 1.05mm the sound actually got bigger. Which suggests to me that having a nice, easy full sound is more than just tip opening. I now use a mouthpiece at 1.02mm. The sound is the colorful and full that I no longer use a mic when playing at my local church on Sundays like I used to. Because there is no need. And this is all with minimal practicing now because my chops simply do not tire out anymore.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-10-15 19:50
Closer tip mouthpieces are not necessarily resistant as some think. By having the right balance in the facing length, chamber, baffle, bore, rails, etc, they can be free and comfortable to play. One of the other issues is choosing a responsive well balanced reed. Some players choose reeds that are too hard or unbalanced and just try to muscle the reed into submission. If the set up is right it should not be difficult to play and one does not need a lot of resistance.
Different players choose different routes. My point is that it is possible to play a close or medium mouthpiece and with great results.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-15 20:35
Excellent comments and I think we're all understanding the value of matching reeds and mouthpieces together, to get and achieve that beautiful ring and ping and warm sound I was trying badly to explain. Thanks for all of your help. We all seem to have the same ideas and know what we want. But we have to watch out from buying those stinky mouthpieces that actually cause damage to our playing. I commented above about the Zinner's. Up close they sound wonderful but they lack that ping and ring and they don't project. So what happens? Players try to open up the tips to 1.15 and more, but sadly this still doesn't work. The mouthpieces are still dead, there isn't that ring. So many mouthpieces are dead, so players want more open tips. 1.15, 1.20, such as the Yamaha Custom's, when will it stop? Will the tip openings hit the Bari sax levels? Hope not!
We don't need that 1.20 to 1.30 tip opening to get big sounds. We just need well designed mouthpieces and reeds so we can practice for 4 hours a day if we want and not kill our embouchure's. Tony Gigliotti did his own facings so when he was with the Philadelphia Orchestra he did make very minor changes. At the same time Wright with Boston and Gennusa with Baltimore, also Mitchell Lurie who I knew well all played around 1.02mm's. Bob Marcellus was said to be at 1.11 but when I measured his mouthpiece it was at 1.08. He had a huge overbite so he needed a bit more open mouthpiece.
I strongly believe in finding that sweet spot in a great mouthpiece to get that pure sound which rings all over a huge hall and the tip opening doesn't have to be that open. As a very good reed maker and designer I feel the best strength reeds are around 3 to 4, depending on who makes them. If the cane is too soft we lose that special clarinet sound we want and this is also one of the reasons why I still play on cane reeds. I need to Hear that ping and that ring.
Thee are so many top players now using less open mouthpieces I feel this trend of open mouthpieces will end one day. It's killing our embouchure's and this is the reason why I'm often telling players to try double lip for a few minutes a day, just to keep their embouchure's in check.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2019-10-15 20:44)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-10-15 21:11
Jura82 wrote:
> So, do you think that closed mouthpiece are for lazy people?
> Because, on more open mouthpiece I need to work harder, but
> getting much more dynamics and fatter sound. On closed one, I
> get focused tone but with limit to dynamic. What do you think?
I think this discussion went off the rails with the sentence about "lazy people," although hopefully the OP had his tongue in his cheek when he typed it. Players tend to insist that the best way to get whatever sound they want is by using the kind of equipment they're used to using. And I suspect you can make any mouthpiece with any facing very resistant (requiring the player to work harder) or very easy-blowing by varying both the strength and the profile of the reeds you use on it.
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2019-10-15 22:22
Been using Reserve Evolution MP/440 (1.08 tip) for several months, coming off M13 and M13-lyre. Plays like a much closer facing, IMHO ... not heard much about this MP lately ... maybe it's been a flop ... but I like it.
Tom
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Author: Jura82
Date: 2019-10-15 23:06
In my country, B45, M30 and BD5 are standards in music schools. I've seen that Martin Frost uses BD7 on Youtube video, and it's tip opening is 1.33mm. I have a slight overbite, but my biggest concern of closed mouthpiece is restriction. For me, it's like comparing tuba and trumpet mouthpiece.When I play M15 I have feeling like playing double reed-resistant and turning reed when playing forte.And on more open mouthpiece, for me is easier getting more volume, but have to work with embouchure.
Both mouthpieces have about same facing, but different resistance and tone.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-10-15 23:16
Quote:
Up close they sound wonderful but they lack that ping and ring and they don't project........The mouthpieces are still dead, there isn't that ring. So many mouthpieces are dead, so players want more open tips. ....... when will it stop? Will the tip openings hit the Bari sax levels? Hope not!
There are times when players choose equipment based on how it sounds in a practice room, which does not always translate to the real world playing situations. Some perceive ring as "bright" and immediately dismiss that sound. You listen to the great players of yesteryear and they all knew how to play with a ringing sound.
Look at the tip opening of the Vandoren 7JB- 170 (measured in 1/100 mm). That is certainly in sax territory.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-10-15 23:18
Jura82 wrote:
> but my biggest
> concern of closed mouthpiece is restriction. For me, it's like
> comparing tuba and trumpet mouthpiece.
But you can't play a tuba with a trumpet mouthpiece with a result that sounds much like a tuba, so the comparison seems at least strained. Clarinet mouthpieces, with tips from .85 mm to 1.40 mm are all designed to produce a successful clarinet result. How the mouthpiece feels and how the player performs on it can vary depending on each player's approach.
> When I play M15 I have
> feeling like playing double reed-resistant and turning reed
> when playing forte.And on more open mouthpiece, for me is
> easier getting more volume, but have to work with embouchure.
> Both mouthpieces have about same facing, but different
> resistance and tone.
I'm confused about what "both mouthpieces" refers to. In the sentence before, you compared an M15 to a "more open mouthpiece," which will not have the same facing. Which two mouthpieces that have similar facings do you mean?
Karl
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Author: Jura82
Date: 2019-10-15 23:31
I'm sorry, the other mouthpiece is X25e from Daddario. I don't have gauges, but with a piece of paper and reed, both have long facing, approx. 19mm. Of course, x25e needs softer reed, number 3. For M15, 3 were too soft, 3.5 were good.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-16 01:45
Paul,
no offense taken. Sorry for a slightly aggressive response, I still can't really adjust to the faxct that this forum is so antiquated in some ways. Nowhere else do people use their actual names, but I guess that's nice. Maybe its time I changed my username here
Sometimes the pursuit to what the composer (supposedly) intended gets out of hand. When Mahler went to New York to conduct his symphonies, did he force the clarinets to change their instruments?
BTT:
Frost plays a mpc with a facing that open? Interesting.
@Jura82: But what exacty is the issue then? Tried a softer reed on the the Daddario?
Best regards
Christian
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-16 01:59
Martin Frost IS amazing. Here is a video of him trying Vandoren V21s .......for the first time?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WFVqplcjJU
Tantalizingly he holds up a box at the end (and you see them at 1:55) but the image is not distinct enough to make out the strength. I'd guess it has to be on the soft side though. ANYBODY know for sure??????
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-16 02:14
I'm also sure he's a bruxist, there seem to be dental signs (wish I could meet him in person... haha) and his masseter looks enormous.
Here's an english version of above vid: https://www.vandorentv.fr/Martin-Frost-and-the-Vandoren-V21-reeds_v306.html
He doesn't mention the strength... At 1:55, it loos a lot like 3 1/2!
Of course there's no real evidence on people with TMJ having a stronger embouchure, but regarding that topic, I should open a new thread
Honestly, with the blatant Vandoren and Buffet advertising Fröst does, he really joined the axis of evil. Who the heck cares when we don't know his setup for SURE. If he had something substantial to say, I wouldn't even be mad....
Brilliant player still.
Post Edited (2019-10-16 02:17)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-16 04:46
If nothing else he demonstrates how well and effortlessly he plays on........pretty much anything. He has clearly switched gear quite openly over the years.
Ah, just looked up bruxist. But that's just it, I don' see ANYTHING in how he plays that demonstrates any sort of undue effort or clenching at all. Literally he is the definition of effortless. If only we all could all play in that manner (irrespective of level of accomplishment which is another entirely separate issue).
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2019-10-16 05:25)
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Author: Jura82
Date: 2019-10-16 11:01
Kalashnikirby wrote:
But what exacty is the issue then? Tried a softer reed on the the Daddario?
Yes, I've tried softer reeds, but not satisfied with a sound. X25e tip opening is 1.25mm but it has a LONG facing. So if I want focused sound on it, I need reed 3 to get it work properly. With 2.5 it sounds like a sax mouthpiece with lot of buzz. But playing on it after few hours causes pain in lips.
On the other hand, M15 needs at least 3.5 to work properly. When I put number 3 and blow harder, the reed closes the mouthpiece. When I put number 4, it's too hard and I get air in sound. With 3.5 is just the wright amount of resistance and the tone is beautifull. But, I can't blow harder then mf and sound is really thin at loud dynamics. Like it has too many higher frequencies. And it's not biting. This Vandoren M15 is Profile 88, but not 13 series, it's 442 pitch. The clarinet is Buffet Crampon E12F. It has some minor intonation issues (open G and A are sharp, but with alternating fingering is ok).
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-10-16 16:59
Lazy? Some of the greatest clarinetists played on close facing mouthpieces - Harold Wright among them.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-10-16 18:09
Personally, I find the M15 a terrible representation of a good closed tip mouthpiece. That’s just my opinion. If you want to try a great closed mouthpiece you should move away from Vandoren or even D’addario.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-17 02:03
I have to make sure of some things here. I want players to be comfortable on their mouthpieces. I want fellow players to play for several hours and not be in lip pain. I want players to sound their very best.
So knowing all of this I do like a lot of Vandoren mouthpieces, such as the BD5's but they surely can benefit from thinner rails and refacing to fit the players needs. I don't like some of the facing measurements of the BD5's and also some of the measurements are uneven. Bring your Babbitt gauges and glass when buying mouthpieces. I am not against long facings nor short ones. But I think that a standard facing is probably a good place to start for school kids. I've said this before that I like the Selmer Concept mouthpieces too, but right out of the box they don't work. So there are a fair amount of decent mouthpieces already on the market that play well and are very well designed. As for the Rico models I have issues with the intonation and the bores are too small at the throat, so go with the BD5's and have these refaced, or the Concept mouthpieces adjusted. They both play much better in tune. Yes I know it depends on the brands of your horns and the barrels as well as the bells in some cases regarding the tuning. Also the years your horns were made, it's not a perfect science and also how well you've taken care of the horns and the weather conditions the horns have been in through the years. This all matters.
As for playing on sax facings I just don't see the need for it.
Ed wrote about a 1.70mm tip opening! That is actually more open than some Bari sax mouthpieces! I suppose there must be players who want this or the companies wouldn't make it! I promise I will sound a lot better and I will be heard in a huge concert hall at a tip opening of 1.05! So will all of you, if you play on decent mouthpieces! Cheers!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2019-10-17 02:08)
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Author: DaphnisetChloe
Date: 2019-10-17 03:37
Sure brightness and ping can project well, but for achieving pure volume without a strained sound, the more open mouthpieces tend to deliver better results. This is why many great players play on open mouthpieces (e.g. BD5, B40 lyre, B40) especially in Europe. Even looking at the roster of current US orchestral players who play on Vandorens shows that many phenomenal artists choose open mouthpieces, for the huge dynamic range and expressive potentials. Ultimately though all that matters is what gives you personally the best result, whether it is a bright sounding close setup that projects like anything, or a more covered sounding open setup that can be pushed to the max to soar over an orchestra without harshness in the sound.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-10-17 06:19
While you say "Ultimately though all that matters is what gives you personally the best result", your choice of terms describing close set ups - "bright", "harshness" seem clearly chosen to make it appear that is a negative or less desirable choice.
Bob gave a number of examples of players who used closer set ups and had no trouble soaring over an orchestra, maintaining a lovely sound. While there is a great variety to the set ups one could find on the current professional scene, there are still plenty who use similar relatively close set ups with great results.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-17 06:46
Ed, thank you! You completely understand and you posted what I'm trying to say.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Kaos
Date: 2019-10-18 03:32
Jura82 wrote:
>
In my country, B45, M30 and BD5 are standards in music schools.
>
In my country too... My conservatory teacher forced me to use a B45 because he said it's useful to develop a firm embochure and that if you learn how to control sound quality, air support, volume, projection, intonation, dynamics etc. on an open mouthpiece then you can play and control every set up. Personally I tried my friend's B40 and I prefer it, it's less "extreme" than the B45. It has a more centered tone, it's more "in control". When I can afford it I will buy a B40.
Before the B45 I played on a more closed mouthpiece and I must admit that overall it took less effort to play. I could easily play harder reeds without getting tired. But it has nothing to do with laziness, as someone already said each one can reach a great level of playing with the set up one is more comfortable with.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-18 14:51
Kaos wrote - "Personally I tried my friend's B40 and I prefer it, it's less "extreme" than the B45. It has a more centered tone, it's more "in control". When I can afford it I will buy a B40."
It's the exact same tip opening. 1.19mm's if the facings were made correctly, chanced are they weren't. I'm not sure what "Extreme," means. I guess countries might be teaching players the wrong way to produce nice sounds, but I really think it's your problem, not the country. Find another teacher. This person is deadly wrong. Tell your teacher I said this too and send me an email. I'm sure I have a better sound and I'm a better teacher.
So what horns are you playing on? A Buffet R13? $4000 or more? You won't buy a $250 mouthpiece to sound great, but you will pay $4000 or more for a Buffet that won't really help your sound? I am positive you can't practice 4 or 5 house a day like I am doing! It's 3:45 AM in California and I'm still up working, practicing, writing this text, trying to help you understand you might learn something of value! I've been up since 5:45 AM. Good luck and be open minded, you will become a much better player. By the way, since I am able to make my own mouthpieces and my own reeds plus my own my molds, I've played with every tip opening you can think of and every type of facing. Just maybe Germany and Austria who tend to use closer facings, plus a lot of American players might know something. How to play for hours and hours and get amazing sounds on close mouthpieces and project. Maybe your countries are wrong. I don't think so. I blame it on the teachers, not the country. That would be silly to blame a country. Remember this final thought. Every time you stop playing because your lips are sore from the wrong tip opening someone is practicing for much longer putting in 2 to 4 hours more per day and getting ahead of you like a wife fire and getting a better sound, faster fingers and having so much more fun.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-10-18 16:47
Daphnes;
>>a bright sounding close setup that projects like anything, or a more covered sounding open setup?
The facing contributes only very little to a bright or covered sound. Those qualities mostly come from the shape and size of the baffle, reed and bore.
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Author: DaphnisetChloe
Date: 2019-10-19 02:45
I wasn't intending to reply again because I didn't want to create an argument... my original message has been misunderstood. Of course one can sound dark and covered on a close setup or bright on an open one. However, many professionals who play on close setups aim for a sound rich in overtones and ring (essentially brighter) that can project, even if they play at a more restrained volume. However, if you look at many of the world's professionals who play on open setups (e.g. members of the LSO, LPO, CSO, NYP, RCO, Martin Fröst, Julian Bliss, etc.) they tend to play with a bit of a darker, more covered sound, which they can ramp up to an enormous fff if they require it. The fact that these players might be 'wrong' for playing such setups is ridiculous, considering the incredible results they are getting. If an artist can produce a gorgeous sound on a mouthpiece at tip = .88 or all the way to 1.33 (I agree, past that is ridiculous for classical style) and have a brilliant career as a result, then one cannot say they are mistaken. It is the hard work they have put in and their artistry and personality that counts, not whether or not they are playing on a close or open facing. The equipment they have personally chosen to help them get the best results is in most cases, the best equipment for them. If that's Vandoren, then so what? Some of their mouthpieces are great. There are strengths and weaknesses, but no mouthpiece is perfect. You could give Martin Fröst a chipped 2nd hand Buffet stock mouthpiece and he'd sound incredible on it
Post Edited (2019-10-19 02:46)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-19 06:12
I did not engage directly to the point about the quality of sound vs the tip opening because it has been address well by Bob and others. However, I want to go on record as saying that the tip opening and length of facing is NOT a major factor in the overall timbre (bright, dark or otherwise) of one's chosen style. I have said in other threads recently that control of pitch and constancy of timbre is made easier with smaller tip openings. The other side of the equation is that vibrato, on-the-fly pitch adjustments, and other stylistic forms of playing are easier with more open set-ups.
But to imply one is clearly superior to another in any way (as if to say classical music is superior to jazz) would not be in my opinion accurate.
................Paul Aviles
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