 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: J-MB
Date: 2019-07-28 20:26
Hi all!
It’s been a while since I have posted on this board just had some general questions I hope you can help with!
I am a rising junior in high school in Ohio, and have started looking at college programs that I would like/may want to audition at. I have made the decision to stay in state because going out of state is exorbitantly expensive and truthfully, I couldn’t afford going out of state without taking tens of thousands of loans.
I have also made the decision that I want to major in music education, due to the number of people I know who have performance degrees who are either A, working in a completely unrelated field or just teaching private lessons at a local music shop. I would definitely be willing to relocate for a job because the metropolitan area i live in is not the most keen on music education.
This all being said, my prospective list is.
Youngstown State (great school which is extremely cheap I could commute to.)
Baldwin Wallace (I’ve heard great things about the teacher, but sort of expensive to be honest.)
Ohio State (I’ve taken a lesson with Dr. Hartig and she is wonderful, but OSU is not to keen on offering money.)
Cincinnati(I know they offer Ed but isn’t this a more performance based school?)
If you guys on this message board could shed some light on Cinci and BW I would greatly appreciate it as I know little nothing about the programs and how they compare to OSU/YSU
Another concern is, is it worth it to go somewhere that’s going to be way more expensive for the sake of going way to school and an *arguably* better program? I know that Cinci, OSU and BW will all cost me 3x-4x the amount YSU would which is a little concerning regarding the starting salary of a public school teacher. But I also don’t know how the programs compare and I know YSU has a great wind ensemble (went to Carnegie Hall in 2015) and I really like the clarinet instructor
So I guess my final question is, is it worth paying the premium for an alternative institution compared to the commuter school that is in my backyard.
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Author: Bonnie
Date: 2019-07-28 20:53
Have you thought about taking your first two years at Youngstown, taking advantage of the opportunity to save some money for your last two years if you think then that you need to move on to a different program? This would give you a chance to work with a clarinet instructor you like, take advantage of the wind ensemble program and other opportunities you don't even know about yet, and give you some breathing room while you weigh your options for the future.
.
bdskees@comcast.net
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Author: J-MB
Date: 2019-07-28 22:16
It would be a thought, Bonnie, but I’m not sure how the curriculum across the 4 years od college would translate to other institutions and programs to graduate on time so I wouldn’t have to take out more loans being at school for an extra semester/year.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-07-29 03:00
I can't speak to any of the schools you've asked about, but I have just a couple of thoughts about what to look for in a post-high school program.
I taught and administered in a local school district in the Philadelphia suburbs. I worked with many music teachers over the years, many who were very good, many others who were either very weak musically or good musicians but really uninterested in teaching, not very effective teachers, simply earning a living.
If you really want to be an effective music educator (at any level) you need to find a school that will both give you a good grounding in current best teaching practices and provide you opportunity for rich, high quality musical experience. To be an effective teacher you need to be strong in both teaching fundamentals and music skills.
There is one other consideration. Teaching certification is generally given by the state. If your training and degree lead to certification in one state the cert may not be recognized by another state where you want to work. So, it's probably wisest for you to find an education program that fits both education and music criteria in Ohio to give you the best chance of working somewhere at least close to home.
Karl
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Author: J-MB
Date: 2019-07-29 07:42
Does it matter really where you go or is the teacher more Important? If I chose to attend grad school right after my ed degree would that nix me from a job because they would have to pay me more due time an advanced degree?
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Author: jack
Date: 2019-07-29 08:57
True that some of the top music schools offer free tuition such as the Colburn Conservatory of Music in Los Angeles.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-07-29 11:05
J-MB wrote:
> Does it matter really where you go or is the teacher more
> Important?
IMO the teacher is important because you should be a strong musician, which generally speaking means you should develop strong performing skills on at least one instrument. Time spent studying with a mediocre teacher works against you.
> If I chose to attend grad school right after my ed
> degree would that nix me from a job because they would have to
> pay me more due time an advanced degree?
That's a contractual matter and varies from one school district to another.
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-07-29 12:24
Karl: the teacher is, of course, important but also the musical environment: the chance to play in excellent ensembles with good musicians, play plenty of repertoire and perform in public. I certainly learned as much from my playing- partners as from my teachers, if not more.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2019-07-29 17:25
Quote:
If I chose to attend grad school right after my ed degree would that nix me from a job because they would have to pay me more due time an advanced degree?
No. It is common for teachers to have masters and occasionally doctorates. Many states require teachers to participate in continuing education, which frequently takes the form of attaining a masters over several summers. School systems don’t necessarily pay a lot more for your expertise, however. Having graduate degrees increases your chances of being hired.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-07-29 22:36
Tobin wrote:
> Quote:
If I chose to attend grad school right after my ed
> degree would that nix me from a job because they would have to
> pay me more due time an advanced degree?
>
> No. It is common for teachers to have masters and occasionally
> doctorates. Many states require teachers to participate in
> continuing education, which frequently takes the form of
> attaining a masters over several summers. School systems
> don’t necessarily pay a lot more for your expertise, however.
> Having graduate degrees increases your chances of being hired.
>
> James
>
Yes, teachers are expected to continue their own education. In PA you need credits beyond the bachelor's just to become fully certified. And doctorates - both PhD and EdD (or DMA or DMEd) - are common among older teachers.
I thought J-MB's question had more to do with trying to enter the profession with extra college credits or even an advanced degree. That can be a deal-breaker for some school districts whose contracts require higher pay for more credits. But, again this is contractual if there is a union involved (if there's no union, anything can happen), and not all districts pass over potential hires even at a higher pay level if the prospect seems really a good fit with the district's needs. When hunting for your first teaching job, you have to deal with this on a case by case basis.
The other side of the coin is that if you look for and get a job first and then want to continue into advanced study, it's much harder to fit it into a busy work schedule.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-07-30 00:46
Here's what I think not that it matters. As for an Education Degree this allows you to teach. So I have to ask you - Do you want to teach at a high school level and below. Or with a Masters, maybe if you are talented, teach at a college level but these jobs are hard to find as you have to a very good player.
And we know how hard it is to get a symphony job. Sometimes you have to be invited to audition to a symphony opening. Other times you may get lucky and be accepted to audition. Both ways have happened to me. 300 people can show up for auditions and sometimes they are behind a screen.
For colleges now if you get an audition you still have to be a very good player. You will have to play concerts with fellow instructors and have a teaching load of 20 to 30 students in a state school system. So an hour per student, plus you will have to teach beginning clarinet for the Music Ed Majors!
Here is an option. There is the military bands. If you get a degree usually you go in at a higher rank and if you are a great player you can take a shot with the Washington bands and make a very good living. Also with a degree you can attempt to get a conducting position and become an Officer. So if you do this and stay in for 25 years you will still be at the age of your mid 40's and have a retirement of 3/4 of your military salary, plus things like medical for you and your family for the rest of your life. I think that's around $50,000 a year retirement at the moment; depending on your rate of course.
So you are retired with all of this music experience. Then you can still try out for teaching at colleges, orchestras, or stay in the military, maybe change careers, go back to college, free from the military, maybe go into a totally different field while making $50,000 a year at today's payscale but more like $90,000 and up in 20 to 30 years.
This of course is just an option. Some of the Washington band members can sit in any symphony. They are that good. We are seeing how a few American symphonies are having some money issues and strikes at the moment. This has been going on for many years. It's not new and it's not going away.
Hope this helps and gets you thinking which way to attend school. It bites if you go to a private music school and when you graduate you have a $250,000 bill to pay off. So surely try for a state school.
Kent State, Ohio State are both good and close to you. Needless to say you won't be spending $250,000 attending these schools.
You can also ask both schools if you can do a double major and spend an extra year. Major in both, Education and Performance. I think you just have to take a few extra classes.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2019-07-30 00:52)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2019-07-30 19:01
J-MB,
I have degrees from three different state universities in Ohio (see my bio by clicking the link) in music as well as education plus administration. In addition, I was an Ohio HS band director for almost 2 decades before getting "kick upstairs" to university teaching and administration. IMHO I believe I have some insights that might be helpful.
When one looks at making a choice between a university music program and a conservatory program first compare the cost of tuition (YSU, Akron, Toledo, Kent, BGSU, Miami, and OSU versus Baldwin or Oberlin). All of these institutions will have similar living expenses but attending BW versus BG when you include tuition shows that the private conservatory will be much more expensive. Also, since you are planning music education/teaching a state university usually has a very seasoned and experienced cadre who not only play extremely well but are also fine examples of teaching for you to emulate as you mature in the workplace.
As far as scholarships, most are based on academics and/or need. Three of my grandchildren (BG, OSU, and Miami grads) had ACT scores in the 30s and got scholarships. The other four, although in the 80th percentile and above did not get assistance. Two that moved on to advanced degrees (they graduated with UG honors) then got a combination of scholarships, fellowships/teaching assistantships, and various awards. So, while you could be the finest player in your area, without good placement test scores and not being in need, it will be difficult to garner tuition assistance.
As far as graduate school, wait until you get your bachelor's degree underway to plan that far ahead. In my decades of advising students, I always felt that moving right on to a graduate degree at the same institution was not the best plan. One needs to prove themselves first at an entry level music education job before graduate school.
HRL
PS I remember your BB query earlier about this topic and the suggestion I made at that time was to go to many universities and hear various ensembles and recitals. No need to interact with a professor at this stage; get your short list first by looking at that person's bio and then do the full court press in the fall of 2020.
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Author: J-MB
Date: 2019-07-31 00:53
Also, another question, would it be the best decision to go to any state institution if I got a full tuition paid for scholarship even if I would have to pay more to go to a school that is bigger with more competition? There’s just so many questions and possibilities!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2019-07-31 05:30
J-MB,
What you are experiencing is referred to as "paralysis by analysis." You are over-thinking IMHO. Pick the most important decision first and then work your way to other issues. Make a decision tree.
HRL
PS The 7 Ps of Planning: Proper prior planning prevents pxxx poor performance.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-07-31 10:24
I forgot to add that if you get a BS and or a BA degree from a state university often you can teach undergrads as you work on your Masters and or Doc degree so your expenses might be done as you are now teaching and gaining some great experience yet making some money! This really isn't offered in the conservatories, or it wasn't when I went in the 1970's.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2019-08-03 00:39
I don't know about the US education system, or music in particular, but I commuted to University and that really helped a lot with the years afterwards. I managed to save up some money in University, and so ended my PhD still without any debt.
The other upside of going to a commutable University was that I was quite well qualified for the course I took and so the Professor of the department supervised me personally right through my entire 4 year course, which really was a fantastic thing.
As I say, I'm not sure how that would work in music, but I think there's a lot to be said for commuting to university if you can manage it.
Good luck! I think the fact that you're thinking so deeply about it and asking good, modest, sensible questions bodes very well for your future.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2019-08-05 09:33
J-MB,
This is what you need to do...
1. Visit all the colleges you are considering. Meet your clarinet professor (at some point).
2. Apply to all the colleges you are considering, never mind the application fee.
3. Start working on your audition materials now (the requirements for each school should be on their website.)
4. Start working on your SAT, etc. prep.
You don’t have to decide until after you are accepted. If you actually go and visit, and do an audition, you will have a much better idea of where you want to go.
FWIW:
College is WAYYYY too expensive no matter what. It’s obscene and wrong, but it’s kind of the way it is. (Practice hard for a scholarship.)
IMO one of the most valuable parts of a GOOD college education is the community (which could be a richer experience if you live there.)
Try to think about what you are good at, or need, and what you want, not just what you think you should do. If you like the place you will learn more.
Unfortunately, there is nothing like College name recognition after graduation - but it won’t guarantee a better education. If you get good grades wherever you go, you will do well.
I would recommend considering a few more options, and consider out of state as well. I don’t say this to discourage you in the least, to distract you, or to persuade you to go out of state if you really want to stay in state. Considering other possibilities may help you decide between the ones you mentioned above. Visiting is a big help. You are interviewing and auditioning the colleges to see which ones will suit you.
When you visit, don’t just go on a tour. Wander around the music building a bit, and talk to some students, eat lunch in the cafeteria or commons. When you meet the professors it doesn’t have to be a big deal, you can just say hello and introduce yourself. (They may have office hours when you can drop in, if you don’t have an appointment. Look presentable, but casual. Ask some questions.)
You can’t go wrong by getting a teaching cert. - no matter what you do.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2019-08-05 09:57)
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