 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cyberprimate
Date: 2011-06-22 22:06
I'm interested in buying a second hand bass clarinet Leblanc (Low Eb) and I read that the 300 series was not as good as the 400 series. Sellers aren't able to tell me much about models they'll typically say "Pro" but that doesn't mean much…
How can I recognize a 325 (or 328?) from a 400 or 425 in a web picture? Also what makes the Leblanc 300 series not as good as the 400 series?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-06-23 02:18
Perhaps Larry Bocaner (who has been playing a semi-custom Leblanc for many years) will correct me, but to the best of my knowledge all Leblanc bass clarinets (including Vito, Normandy and Noblet) up through the 425 model are essentially the same acoustically and (mostly) mechanically; I believe it's only the 430 model that's different in that it has an automatic double register mechanism. My opinion of the majority of the Leblancs is that, marketing/branding aside, they are really student/intermediate instruments, because they have a single register vent (NOT to be confused with the pinch-Bb vent), and tend to play stuffy and sharp in the low clarion register, and thin-sounding in the upper clarion, because the single register vent is too much of a compromise at the outer ends of the clarion register.
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Author: cyberprimate
Date: 2011-06-23 02:41
Thanks David. Yes, the single vent register system is inferior, but unfortunately a double vent system will cost me much more.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2011-06-23 02:43
Why limit yourself to just Leblanc bass clarinets?
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Hope to see you at ClarinetFest!
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-06-23 02:55
Slander!
All Leblancs, Noblets, Vitos are not the same acoustically -- and certainly the top of the line instruments (at least the vintage ones) are certainly not "student/intermediate" instruments. The first-line pro-quality instruments were identifiable by the intertwined LL logo, and have a completely different bore size from the 300 series horns. I defy anyone who has heard me play (including Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet" a couple of weeks ago) to say that my upper register is "weak at both ends." My own 1960's-vintage model 517 was abandoned by Leblanc in favor of a slightly smaller-bore 417 (with a concomitant loss of power and resonance). The x17 numbers indicate low-C instruments;x13 numbers denote instruments with the forked low Ab-clarion Eb fingering (in lieu of a left had Eb/Ab lever).
The older LL Leblancs, with proper maintenance -- skin pads importantly -- and a good mouthpiece and reeds are every bit "professional quality" instruments. The recently-abandoned Buffet 1180 single-register-key basscl is, in my experience, not!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-06-23 04:16
Thanks for correcting me, Larry, I was counting on you not being shy about responding!  But isn't your own bass a double-register-vent model with some custom modifications to your specification? If so then it's hardly representative of typical Leblancs. And as far as the bore being different between the wood Leblanc models and the others in the line, I have some "new old stock" Leblanc bass upper joints here (just the bodies, no keywork) that measure the same as some Vito upper joints I've got.
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Author: cyberprimate
Date: 2011-06-23 19:37
I wasn't aware there were 500 or 600 series Leblancs.
Larry, are you suggesting that the 400 series were larger bore than the 300 series but smaller than the 500 series? Were these numbers describing 3 levels of bore diameter with 3 different levels of acoustic quality?
Here in Paris, I'm interested in one Leblanc with a 0.984 (25mm) bore diameter, may I ask you what bore diameter your 517 has?
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-06-24 14:24
I don't know anything about 600 series Leblancs. Yes, I believe that the 300-400-500 series designations refer to differing bore dimensions. My model 517 seems to have a bore of 25mm -- measured at the base of the gooseneck.
Second register key, referred to by Dave Spieg is for optional use for better intonation and quality on the long B -- also useful for playing a very good Bb (3rd line) in the second register. Not a difficult addition for a talented tech to fashion for you.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-06-24 17:09
The second register key is only easy to add if it is manually operated (and even then, sizing and placement of the second vent requires a certain amount of trial-and-error to get right). To 'upgrade' a single automatic register vent system to a double AUTOMATIC vent system is not a trivial task. I build entire low-C extensions just for fun, but I'd be hesitant to take on the designing and installation of a double automatic vent system onto a single-vent instrument.
On small-bore bass clarinets such as Oehler-system instruments (I have a very nice F. Arthur Uebel model), double manual register keys are no problem at all, because the 'normal' lower vent is quite usable right up into the altissimo range, with only a slight degradation of response and pitch as you get up into the upper clarion -- so for faster passages there's no reason at all to shift to the second register key. For more sustained passages when there's time to shift, the second (upper) key sounds and feels a bit better. However, the larger the bore of the instrument, the more of a compromise a single vent becomes. I played all through my college years on a single-vent Noblet so I have personal experience in "getting by", but in my opinion a decently-designed double-vent system is usually superior for response and intonation in the clarion register. True, it's more finicky.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-06-24 19:55
My second register key is manually operated and uses existing throat Bb vent!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-24 20:52
My first register key is manually operated as well and it uses the existing thumb. :-)
(I'd rather my pinkies were automatic, pesky Sabre Dance!)
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-06-25 02:52
I don't even use register keys any more, I just chomp down on the reed and blow real hard until some sort of high note thingie comes out. Saves wear and tear on my thumb!
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Author: ken
Date: 2017-10-29 23:12
Attachment: Leblanc Bb Bass Clarinet 2.png (470k)
Attachment: Leblanc Bb Bass Clarinet.png (400k)
David / Larry, it's been a number of years on this post, however it best utilizes the BB. I'm looking at purchasing a Leblanc (Paris) Bb Bass Clarinet #14489. No model # was given so I'm trying to run that down.
The dannychesnut website horn tables identify the serial number as 1984 production for models #400,415,417,425,430,325,330.
http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Clarinet/Leblanc/LeblancSerialNumbers.htm
The seller is claiming in the ad the horn has a "low c," however doesn't validate with a picture (i.e., c-nat, d-flat/c-sharp, d-nat) thumb keys). Not helping, no model number is provided.
The question is do you know, of the models cited here, there are specific models that included the low c key?
thanks, Ken Kolb
Post Edited (2017-10-29 23:27)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-10-31 02:05
For the 425,430,325,330:
The x25 range to low Eb and x30 to low C.
The 3xx have a single register key, the 4xx have a double register key.
All these have the fork Ab-Eb key.
The 400 model is the most common on ad sites. It has no fork Ab-Eb key.
https://docgo.org/leb-alto
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-11-01 11:34
>> The seller is claiming in the ad the horn has a "low c," however doesn't validate with a picture (i.e., c-nat, d-flat/c-sharp, d-nat) thumb keys). <<
Ken, if you count the keys you can see in the photo, there are exactly enough for low Db. I don't think Leblanc has ever made any low Db bass clarinets (but maybe?) so most likely one of the keys is on the other side or at the back, just not visible in the photo. This would make it a low C. I don't remember the setup on Leblancs well enough to say where that key is. Maybe they can send you a few more photos from other directions so you can verify.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-11-01 12:28
clarnibass wrote:
> I don't think Leblanc has ever made
> any low Db bass clarinets (but maybe?)
They made low-D basses, with no thumb keys. I happen to buy one which I thought was a low C but didn't look carefully enough on the pictures. No disaster, got it cheap.
The instrument in question is clearly a low C. Just count the tone holes on the 2nd picture. The D3 venting hole is on the rear side, the C#3 venting hole is on the bell and the bell vents the C3.
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Author: bassclar
Date: 2022-11-06 21:44
On 2011-06-24 LarryBocaner wrote: "Second register key, referred to by Dave Spieg is for optional use for better intonation and quality on the long B -- also useful for playing a very good Bb (3rd line) in the second register. Not a difficult addition for a talented tech to fashion for you."
Not trying to put words into Larry's mouth, but let me try to paraphrase this decade-old post, because I think there is some confusion.
Before modification, Larry's model 517 had a single automatic register key, opening two vents (one at a time) determined by linkage from the right hand. He added a 2nd register key, opening a 3rd vent, not linked to the original register key, which he uses for long B (but the original register key still works, for technical passages) and for long Bb. It shouldn't be too hard for a tech to add this 2nd key and 3rd vent, though as David Spiegelthal mentions, it's not trivial to determine exactly where the 3rd vent should optimally be located. [end paraphrase]
IMHO, Larry's horn would be considered a "pro" model even without the modification. But perhaps I'm biased, because I own a very similar horn.
I bought my own Leblanc bass clarinet brand new in 1984. It has range to low C, double automatic register key, and fork Ab/Eb. I'm not sure what model it is. The ssn list at https://tinyurl.com/ChesnutLeblancSSN says model 417 was discontinued in 1982. It's possible that my horn sat in the music store for 2+ years before I bought it. However my horn's ssn is 14822 which, according to the "400,415,417,425,430,325,330" ssn chart, is near the end of 1984's run. (I'm pretty sure I bought my horn in the _spring_ of 1984, though, which doesn't quite jibe.) I guess that means (?) that my horn is the model 430.
A few things about my horn (which might be Leblanc model 430):
* It originally had a very stuff throat Bb (using the standard "pinch" fingering). All through high school and college I would use an alternate fingering for this note, fingering throat A and adding the 3rd side key. (For fast passages I would obviously use the standard fingering.) I took it to a tech in the early 2000s who actually messed up the horn pretty bad (had to take it to a different tech to get it back up to snuff) but somehow this tech removed the stuffy throat Bb, even though that's not what I asked him to work on. Ever since then, the standard "pinch" fingering sounds no worse than A+3rd-side-key, though old habits die hard and sometimes I find myself using A+3rd-side-key anyway.
* Long Bb (finger low Eb and add the register key) sounds decent on my horn, even though I don't have Larry's custom 3rd register vent. I wouldn't necessarily call it "very good" as Larry calls his, but it's decent. I will use it sometimes when it's technically easier (coming from other notes in the lower clarion, say), or even for timbral reasons (such as slurring from whole note B to whole note Bb).
Before Dave Spiegelthal examined my horn, I believe he was unaware that any Leblanc basses had an automatic double register key. My horn was completely overhauled by Wesley Rice in 2016.
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