 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2017-09-20 06:30
I've been playing on reeds harder than normal for a long time. I practice in a very echo-y room. All hardwood floors and using hard reeds made it sound dark and rich. However, as I practiced in a practice room, I realized that it wasn't dark but dull and fuzzy. I've recently been training myself to use softer reeds and life has been so much better. I don't have bit marks on my inner lower lip from biting so hard, tonguing has never been easier, and it is just more enjoyable to play in general. I only have one problem. When I play, I sound very bright and harsh. It sounds like I have been playing on 4 reeds my whole life and have just been given a 2 reed. It's very bright, and has that soft reed sound where everything sounds all blatty and reedy. Does anyone have any solution to this?
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2017-09-20 07:42
I went through something similar when I got a new mouthpiece and decided to try softer reeds (only by 1/2 strength) because they were recommended with that opening. I loved the response but hated the tone, particularly on anything higher than C6. Reading this board I kept hearing great things about Aria reeds from Brad Behn, so I ordered them and, for me at least, they were a revelation. They have the easier response of softer reeds but the core of the harder reeds. They also run soft, and you can try a box of two different strengths.
I don't know how much softer you have gone, or what brand you currently use, but I would suggest trying some other brands, in a 1/4 or 1/2 strength softer to see what works best.
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2017-09-20 10:04
I'm WAS playing on Vandoren V12 3.5+. I just wanted to add on another thing.
I remember that I was like a crazy 20 cents sharp and had to pull my barrel around 4mms. I realized that with the softer reed I play precisely in tune which is why I think that I've been playing with the wrong reeds.
Currently, now, I play on the regular Vandoren 3.5 which are sanded using Tom Ridenour's ATG tool so it's more of a 3.25. I'm really happy with them. I'm not looking into changing my reed brand but more looking for proper technique.
I think one of the problems that is holding me back is that A LOT of air leaks from my mouth. With the proper embouchure with the pointed chin, squeeze sides, etc, lots of air is being lost from my mouth. It's not really a little gap but a breeze of air. I believe the culprit is that I"m blowing so much air into the instrument which is why I sound very bright and why air is leaking out but if I blow less air, it doesn't have the full clarinet tone. Perhaps for focused air stream?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-09-20 18:53
GenEric wrote:
> Currently, now, I play on the regular Vandoren 3.5 which are
> sanded using Tom Ridenour's ATG tool so it's more of a 3.25.
Well, no, it's the same cane, still just as stiff (remember, Vandoren reeds are all cut the same and graded afterward). It's just thinner. But the stiffness can also contribute resilience (springiness), causing it to return more quickly and easily to its original shape after being flexed. IMO (unsupported by any scientific data) resilience is as important as flexibility in determining a reed's responsiveness. I think that's why many players start with reeds that are too strong and thin them (usually in specific places) to get the flexibility of a softer reed while keeping the resilience of stiffer cane.
>
> I think one of the problems that is holding me back is that A
> LOT of air leaks from my mouth. With the proper embouchure with
> the pointed chin, squeeze sides, etc, lots of air is being lost
> from my mouth.
I would suggest that if so much air is leaking around the mouthpiece, you aren't using a "proper embouchure." I think, without seeing you play, that you're following some set of rules you've read or been told about embouchure and misapplying, misinterpreting or overdoing something that's causing a lack of control. Unfortunately, there's no reliable way to diagnose the problem in a text-based Internet forum. It would be best to have someone who is both a skilled clarinetist and an experienced diagnostician work with you in person.
> I only have one problem. When I play, I sound very bright and
> harsh. It sounds like I have been playing on 4 reeds my whole
> life and have just been given a 2 reed. It's very bright, and
> has that soft reed sound where everything sounds all blatty and
> reedy. Does anyone have any solution to this?
You may well have been playing on reeds that were too heavy. But from your description of your current sound with the 3.5s, they're too soft. What mouthpiece are you using (you've probably told us in other threads, but I don't remember)?
> I'm blowing so much air into the instrument which is why I sound very
> bright and why air is leaking out but if I blow less air, it doesn't have the
> full clarinet tone. Perhaps for focused air stream?
I think you may be in danger of over-thinking all of this. The right strength with the right mouthpiece and a truly "proper" embouchure should produce a characteristic clarinet tone no matter how loud or soft. Lots of people talk and write about a "focused" airstream, and some of the techniques they suggest may even improve the resonance and the legato of a player who already has basic tone production under control, but the kind of problem you describe is more basic and usually involves to much pushing, pulling and otherwise contorting things in an effort to do things "correctly."
One approach that might help reset things is to try playing double lip for awhile, using some #3.5s and some #3.5+s, forming the lips around the mouthpiece in the most natural, comfortable way you can find. Don't try to conform to anything specific, just be comfortable. You won't at the beginning be able to do this for more than a few minutes, so when you let your upper lip out, try to keep the overall embouchure the same as the double lip version. Don't squeeze the sides, point the chin or blow exaggerated amounts of air. Just try to duplicate what the double lip embouchure felt like.
Meanwhile, notice which reed strength requires you to do less adjusting to it to get a clear response.
Karl
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-09-21 18:22
Quote:
I only have one problem. When I play, I sound very bright and harsh. It sounds like I have been playing on 4 reeds my whole life and have just been given a 2 reed. It's very bright, and has that soft reed sound where everything sounds all blatty and reedy. Does anyone have any solution to this?
I made this same adjustment several years ago.
You should explore blowing warmer air, as if you are trying to fog up a window. This can be done without lowering the back of the tongue (assuming you voice the clarinet with a high or EEEE tongue position).
You can also explore weather you are blowing harder in addition to blowing faster when you use louder dynamic levels. There's no need to blow harder. You could be using faster wind that is blown effortlessly (pressure-lessly?) faster.
Finally: I was committed to the process and not at all sure how things were going. I was playing one morning and very sure that my sound was "bright" and "thin". My wife, a cellist, came downstairs...complimented my sound and asked if I was playing my A clarinet...I was on Bb. So you may be just fine and in need of another person's perspective.
Good luck!
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-21 18:55
Funny thing - At the ClatinetFest I saw a lot of mouthpieces with patches on them. That's fine!
The first thing I noticed were most of the patches were put on wrong, right at the tip of the mouthpiece. Patches are for your teeth, not to build up the tip of the mouthpieces, so now you have air bouncing back at you because the patches are way too thick and belong were your teeth bite is! In my opinion the patch should not be very thick. But I saw some thick ones and the patches had hole marks in them from the teeth! Now we have a major problem. The player bites really hard if there are holes in the patches. We have to get back to basics.
In this case softer reeds are a must and so is a mirror to see what the embouchure is doing. Practicing with a double lip embouchure is pretty much a must. Every musician should have a mirror on his/her stand or next to them to see what is going on. When you hear a really sweat note come out of the horn, look and see what your embouchure was doing. Same with an ugly note. My guess is hardly anyone these days looks into mirrors. Using a mirror is a must when warming up and doing long tones.
Most of the players today seem to be using softer reeds. Since I import reeds most of the sales are 3 and 3 1/2 strength reeds, with your standard facings. A few players use 4's and only 1 player ever bought a box of 4 1/2's.
With tip openings around 1.03 or so 3 1/2 fits well. For 1.07 to 1.11 we sell a lot of 3's.
With the RD5 Vandoren mouthpiece we still sell 3 strengths, maybe because the facing is longer. I did sell a few 2 1/2 strength reeds to a player using this mouthpiece.
I sell German cut reeds for the German players and even with tip openings under 1.00 the hardly anyone ever plays anything over a 3 1/2. These facings are also long.
So yes keep favoring the softer side of reeds. You will start to hear a fuller sound and a richness and fullness to your sound and it will have a nice ping and ring to it with the right mouthpiece and the right instrument..
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-09-21 19:16
"I've been playing on reeds harder than normal for a long time." There really isn't a "normal." There are strengths that work better or worse for different players and set-ups, and often for different aspects of playing. Besides the "strength" number, there are different profiles and widths, which also can work better or worse for different aspects of playing. Everything's a trade-off, and any change in reeds interacts with the embouchure in ways that may or may not be well-managed. A lot depends on the kind of playing one does, but if it's necessary to come in softly on an upper-register note exactly on the beat consistently over a two-hour period, one will usually gravitate away from really hard reeds. If occasionally sounding a little like a kazoo is not a viable option, one will also gravitate away from the really soft ones.
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2017-09-26 04:52
Just wanted to point out I play a Libertas Clarinet with Tom Ridneour's mt-36 mouthpiece.
I took all of your guys' suggestions and I sound much better. Turns out, I was pointing my chin so much, air was leaking out from the bottom corners. With a little bit of practice, I sound much better. Much more smooth,dark, less kazoo like.
I got to try out my friend's R13 and another's Tosca he got at a really good price (lucky man). I didn't get to extensively try them out but they both played somewhat similar. Other than the better key work, they seem to be more free blowing and have a smaller bore feeling. Since it was more free blowing, the instrument felt more responsive and I didn't feel like i was going to squeak and I could play higher notes.
I don't mind the key work but I feel like the Ridenour clarinet and Buffet clarinets are almost 2 different horns. Does anyone have any opinions on this?
I would like to get another mouthpiece that would help me imitate the free blowingness of the R13. I know the M13 Lyre is a fairly popular open mouthpiece. Unfortunately, none of my stores near me have mouthpieces to try out so I'm only going off what people have to say.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-09-26 05:36
GenEric wrote:
> I know the M13 Lyre is
> a fairly popular open mouthpiece. Unfortunately, none of my
> stores near me have mouthpieces to try out so I'm only going
> off what people have to say.
No, the M13 Lyre is a very popular close-tipped mouthpiece (1.02 mm with a medium long curve).
If you're going to use a Vandoren, the M13 Lyre is a very good mouthpiece. There is a fair amount of variability between one M13 L and another, so you're better off trying two or three. Many online outlets will let you buy several with a credit card and allow returns without a restocking fee if you keep at least one. Read the return policy for the vendor you want to deal with.
Karl
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-09-26 06:07
Quote:
I don't mind the key work but I feel like the Ridenour clarinet and Buffet clarinets are almost 2 different horns. Does anyone have any opinions on this?
They are clarinets, but they are not the same -- and not trying to be the same. Tom is not trying to make Buffet's. His concept is his own.
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2017-09-26 07:07
I see. The mouthpiece i use, mt-36, is a medium-long tip. I want it to be more open and less resistant so I can play faster passages easier. Do you have any vandoren mouthpiece recommendations?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-09-26 09:45
GenEric wrote:
> I see. The mouthpiece i use, mt-36, is a medium-long tip. I
> want it to be more open and less resistant so I can play faster
> passages easier.
This is completely non-sequitur. A more open doesn't necessarily guarantee a freer response and neither has anything to do with playing faster passages.
> Do you have any vandoren mouthpiece
> recommendations?
Well, my recommendation in a Vandoren would be M13 Lyre or M15. But I do have a prejudice toward close tip openings. They are both closer-tipped facings, the M15 having the longer curve of the two.
Karl
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2017-09-26 12:27
GenEric (nice name!) -
I own and play both an R13 and a Libertas. They are pretty different from each other and I use each for different kinds of musical situations. The physicality of playing each one is different and requires that I know how to alter my playing to get the best results from each.
I love your enthusiasm, but I suspect you may be getting just a little ahead of yourself. I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and suggest that you don't really have an equipment problem, except for maybe finding reeds that match well to the rest of your set-up. Maybe email Ted Ridenour and see what reeds Tom recommends for that mouthpiece and start with that.
As your embouchure, use of air, and voicing become solid and consistent you will be in a much better position to accurately explore and evaluate these differences in equipment. Put your energy into practicing for now. It's amazing how much better one's equipment sounds and responds when significant time is spent playing it everyday, especially while focusing closely on fundamentals.
The Libertas is an excellent clarinet. Why not learn to get the most out of it before getting too concerned with what else is out there? Personally I'd most likely wait to go mouthpiece shopping until the "you" part of the equation is more settled. Spend the mouthpiece money on a lesson or two with a good teacher instead. S/he will be able to give you much more accurate feedback and advice on where to best focus your resources than any of us can here by guesswork and generalities.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-26 17:19
I use relatively soft reeds, Pilgerstorfer Dolce #3.5 (about like a VD blue box #3) ... I like most of the "hold" or resistance in the MP and clarinet. I can play to super C and above and with no biting ...
IMHO, really stiff reeds have a hard, restrained quality to the sound, lacking fluidity and sweetness ... at least for me. I'll admit that some really fine players can get away with this and with a nice sound.
But in my old age ... I don't like working so hard.
Tom
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-26 18:03
In regards to Ridenour Libertas versus the R13 (greenline, in my case) ... I think (depending on what I've had for breakfast, sunspots and low flying crows), the Libertas is more free blowing. I swap back in forth and the Ridenour is really an entirely different experience, as is the Yamaha 650, unless my senses are dulled that day ...
I like the glow and compactness of the R13 in the left hand clarion register and the higher pitch in the altissimo (I use softer reeds) The Liberatas is warmer and more even over the break, with a clear bell B.
Yamaha 650 might have the best tuning, I dare say ... ?
I've been spending all my money on Ham Radio stuff lately ... I'll part with some loot for a CSVR someday ...
It's all fun.
Tom
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