 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2017-05-15 07:12
Quick question: When does a clarinet quit being a "simple system" and start being something else?
In my neck of the woods, folks throw the words, "Albert", "Simple", and such around with careless disregard (usually meaning, "Not Boehm") and as such, I'm perpetually confused by where the terms fall in technical/meaningful writing/discussion.
A year or two ago, the bboard answered my question(s) about the differences between various German lines, but now I'm left wondering if there are definite characteristics which include/exclude a clarinet as being "simple."
Thanks!
Fuzzy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-15 08:55
The most basic Albert/simple systems have around 13 keys and up to four ring keys and a French bore. Most will only have the two ring keys on the lower joint for RH fingers 2 and 3 to better tune the B/F# (xxx|xoo).
If they have ring keys on the top joint, then they're either for LH fingers 1 and 2 to correct the F# (left thumb only) without having to use the side F/C key to bring it up to pitch, but the ring key pad will be kept closed to keep the notes from top C and above in tune while either or both LH fingers 2 and 3 are closed while LH1 is raised.
Or they may have the Barret action with rings for LH 2 and 3 and a single side key for Eb/Bb and F/C instead of two separate side keys for these notes (but most only have the side F/C key and no side Eb/Bb key). This makes playing something like Db-Eb-F in the lower register much easier.
German system have from around 17 keys to 22 keys, up to six ring keys and a German bore. Oehler systems have from 24 to 28 keys and five rings - they have a fingerplate for RH2 instead of an open tonehole directly under RH finger 2 as the tonehole has been moved to the side of the body - the fingerplate controls both that and the forked Bb/F mechanism.
Like oboes, with non-Boehm system clarinets (German and Oehler) you get more keywork and gadgets with the more money you're willing to spend on them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-05-15 09:48
Chris, I doubt if we really can translate the German word Klappe into English word key. Actually, if you count the keys on full Oehler system clarinets as we did for Boehm, you will never be able to find 27 "keys".
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2017-05-15 10:51
not all "keys" are operated by individual fingers - some just so happen to be closed/opened along other (distinctly operated) keys.
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Ben
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-05-15 11:48
That's the confusing part. when we say 17, 18 keys Boehm system, we mean 17, 18 keys operated by individual fingers whereas for German system, it is not the case.tictactux wrote:
> not all "keys" are operated by individual fingers - some just
> so happen to be closed/opened along other (distinctly operated)
> keys.
>
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2017-05-15 12:42
More is always better. I have 17 keys on my clarinet, and another twelve on my music stand. So 29 all in all. I beat you. :-)
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Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-15 14:59
I've tried to find all 27 keys on an Oehler system, but can't ever get that number - I get either too few if I count just the touchpieces or too many if I count all the individual key parts.
But that's how they're all listed in any catalogue, so what can you do?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2017-05-15 16:00
This chart http://www.keilwerth.de/downloads/klappen.pdf lists 27 items, but upon closer inspection, one "key" is sometimes broken up into 2 or 3 individual parts, so that's cheating. :-)
The normal "count" seems to go until 21 or 22. A "Full" Oehler has bell keys and other gizmos. And I think they count the cups (and pads), not the touchpieces.
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Ben
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-05-15 16:27
No, it is not the cups. I think it is the rolling mechanisms (including the ones near the rings). That is why the low E/F correction key adds three "keys" (Oehler without low E/F as the picture above has only 24 "keys"). The long lever and two cups are three rolling mechanisms.
Post Edited (2017-05-15 16:33)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2017-05-15 19:25
From Ben's diagram...could it be that they are counting each piece which has independent movement on a hinge tube?
Also, are the terms "simple" and "Albert" used interchangeably? I had thought that, technically, the term "Albert" referred only to clarinets made/designed by Eugène Albert. I understand that folks throughout history have attributed any keywork similar to Eugene Albert's as "Albert Systems" - but that's what I'm trying to avoid. To me, that would be akin to calling all Boehm system clarinets "Buffets" - which would cause huge hurdles in discussing the differences between various models of Boehm system clarinets.
Even when visiting sites where all clarinet manufacturers are listed - it is common to find many companies listed as "manufacturer of Albert system clarinets" - yet they omit Eugene Albert as a manufacturer altogether.
This is part of the confusion I have when trying to study this area of clarinet history. If "Simple System" and "Albert System" are synonymous, then part of my confusion is clarified. However, that would still leave me confused as to where the correct terminology changes from "simple" to something else. (Didn't the original Mueller design have only 13 keys? - if so, would it also be considered a "simple" system?) Also - one last question...would the old boxwood/ivory clarinets from earlier centuries also fall into the "simple" system classification...or do they have their own category?
I'm sure this is all-too-obvious to many of you, but it has always been a point of confusion for me. Your patience with me on this topic is greatly appreciated.
With Highest Regards,
Fuzzy
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-05-15 20:15
There are no agreed upon naming conventions for what is a key and the name of the key itself (if it is a key!). In repair school we learned that a key has a pad cup and a lever did not. (And then there are rockers, and maybe a few other names I'm forgetting). I know this convention is followed by at least a few manufacturers. As far as "simple system" is concerned, I think we have to accept that there is no standard definition.
Steve Ocone
Post Edited (2017-05-15 20:18)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-05-15 21:26
Someone asked me how many keys an alto or tenor sax has.
I replied 'Just the right amount'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-05-16 01:46
Attachment: 13_key_description_klose.jpg (770k)
Attachment: 13_key_fingerchart_klose.jpg (767k)
From the H. E. Klosé book 'Clarinet School' published by Hawkes & Son in 1906.
It has a Bohm fingering chart and also very good Albert/Simple System chart (including trills). No surprises in the fingerings a regular Albert/Simple System flute with 12 touch-pieces is known as a '13 key' clarinet. Page 9 describes the keys and the numbering of them in great detail:
"Description and fingering of the Keys.
(Simple System).
Key No. 1 - Is an open key to which a lever is attached, and is closed by the fourth finger of the left hand, all other keys and holes being closed, produces the notes E and B.
Key No. 13 must be opened for all notes above A, in the second space.
Key No. 2 - Is a closed key and is opened by the fourth finger of the left hand also, all other keys and holes being closed, excepting No. 1, (which remains open) produces F# or Gb and C# and Db.
Key No. 3 - Is an open key, and is closed by the fourth finger of the right hand, all other keys and holes being closed, produces F and C.
Key No. 4 - Is a closed key, and is opened by the fourth finger of the right hand, all other keys and holes being closed, excepting Nos. 1 and 3 (which remain open) produces Ab or G# and Eb or D#.
Key No. 5 - Is a closed key, and is opened by the third finger of the right hand, all other keys and holes above it being closed, produces Bb or A# and F or E#.
Ring-Key No. 6 - Is an open key, and is closed by the action of the rings which surround the second and third finger-holes on the lower joint, right hand.
Key No. 7 - Is a closed key, and is opened by the fourth finger of the left hand, all other keys and holes above it being closed, produces C# or Db and G# or Ab.
Key No. 8 - Is a closed key, and is opened by the third finger of the left hand, all other keys and holes above it being closed, produces Eb or D# and Bb or A#.
Key No. 9 - Is a closed key, and is opened by the first finger of the right hand, all other keys above it, and the thumb hole being closed, produces F or E# and C or B#.
Key No. 10 - Is a closed key, and is opened by the second finger of the left hand, all other keys above it being closed, and all holes open, produces Ab or G#.
Key No. 11 - Is a closed key, and is opened by the first finger of the left hand, all other keys above it being closed, and all holes open, produces A.
Shake-Key No. 12 - Is a closed key, and is opened by the first finger of the right hand and is used only for making shakes.
Thumb key No. 13 - Is a closed key, and is opened by the thumb of the left hand, all other keys being closed, excepting No. 11 and all holes open, produces A# or Bb and is kept open for all notes above A, in the second octave.
Key X - on the lower joint (extra C# key). Is an open key connected with keys 1 and 3, and is closed by the fourth finger of the left hand on key No. 1, all other keys and holes above it being closed, produces F#, Gb, C# or Db."
V
Post Edited (2017-05-16 01:48)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2017-05-16 04:18
Thanks to everyone for the replies!
Vaughan - thanks for the pages! They were a perfect match for my clarinets (mine has one additional "trill" key as an alternate for Eb/Bb - otherwise, they're the same). I guess mine would be a 14-key Albert then?
At any rate: Back to the original question. I know that Mueller and Albert systems evolved to extremes of key work...would most folks (even in Europe) regard these advanced models as "simple systems"?
Do Europeans use the term "simple system" - or is more of an American thing?
Thanks,
Fuzzy
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-05-16 05:18
In the UK Simple and Albert are pretty well synonymous and the terms are used interchangeably.
Tony F.
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