 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-17 02:16
I had been playing a tenor recorder and told my son I didn't care for the tone, so he bought me a Yamaha ycl 250. I played clarinet in a marching band in school. I'm 71 and have been practicing 40 min to an hour for the past 10 days. I've been using the double lip embouchure because it feels the most natural to me. I cycle 3 days a week. Today after a ride I attempted to practice and after 10 min or so air started leaking from my lips- something I've been contending with for the past few days. From what I've read it's because the unused muscles around the mouth aren't in shape yet. Should I back off from practicing every day ? Other suggestions welcome.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2017-04-17 03:00
My teacher has told me to stop playing when I can tell my embouchure needs a rest, then to come back an hour later. Because my early band teachers weren't clarinet players, I never learned the proper embouchure. Fast forward almost 50 years, and she and I worked all last summer on changing it and she said it would take a good year to develop those muscles. She also suggested I purchase Embouchure Building for Clarinetists by Larry Guy. It's a quick read and there are some great suggestions in it. Best of luck...and GOOD FOR YOU!!! Check out New Horizons International Music Association for bands that would be appropriate for you in your area. We have a NH band here in Boise and it's the highlight of our week. It's made up of "older" folks (our oldest was 94 for quite awhile now it's 89!) who haven't played in awhile but want to get back into it. We're on the "retirement home circuit" and play all over town. Best of luck with this new endeavor!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-04-17 05:02
Always something to consider if your embouchure is tiring quickly is reed strength. Are you working at all hard to produce your sound? You shouldn't need to squeeze your lips together around the mouthpiece - just enough active engagement to close off any air leak. Later, when your lips are stronger, you can decide whether it improves sound or response to use a harder reed and apply more pressure around the mouthpiece, but for now, the easiest response should give you reasonable embouchure endurance and let you build gradually.
If you're playing double lip exclusively, you may want to try a neck strap or just resting the clarinet on your knee or between your knees as you begin to feel tired (but, ideally, before a leak begins). It should build endurance to rest when you feel tired for 10 or 15 minutes and then continue to play. You need time to get blood supply back into the muscles.
Karl
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-17 05:46
Roxann, thanks for the encouragement. I plan on purchasing the book as soon as my budget permits. Karl, as far as reed strength, I had been using 2 1/2 and just to see what difference it would make bought three 1 1/2 . Today I realized my playing had become more difficult in the past week and that I had doubled the the mileage I cycle during that same week. Initially, the 1 1/2 reeds seemed easier to play, but being tired from cycling it made no difference. Going to cut back on the cycling. Clarinet playing takes priority now !
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-04-17 08:41
Hi,
It's quite normal for your embouchure to fail initially, you're using muscles that are not accustomed to the activity. Just take a break when your lips tire and give them time to recover. don't try to play through embouchure failure, you'll just cause damage to the muscle and it will take longer to recover. Double lip take more muscle strength than single lip. I've tried both and personally I find that I get better results with single lip. Different strokes.
You'll develop a stronger embouchure with time. Unfortunately, as I know too well, age is a factor here. It takes longer for someone of our vintage (I'm 78) to develop the muscles than when we were 20.
The New Horizons band idea is a good one. I also play with a N.H band and it's a great way to develop musically in a supportive environment.
Tony F.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-04-17 21:20
Good advice offered above, but to answer your basic question simply - lots of practice in small bursts with plenty of rest in between is the way to go.
10-15 minutes 2 or 3 times a day is far better in the early stages than trying to do 30-45 mins in one go.
Regular practise like this every day (or as many days a week as you can manage) will do no harm to your embouchure..
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Author: pewd
Date: 2017-04-17 21:47
2nd what Caroline said - break your practice up into multiple short sessions when you're first learning.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-04-17 22:15
Why not use the single lip embouchure which could be less tiring and more rewarding? You may wish to put a small plastic patch on your mouthpiece to minimize scratching it and soften the feel on your upper teeth.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2017-04-18 17:26
I agree that initially, and especially at our age (I am 66), more practice sessions, of shorter duration,, especially spaced throughout the day can be very beneficial.
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-19 15:45
Thanks to all who replied. I've decided to take your advice. Yesterday I returned to single lip embouchure (although I have to really concentrate to keep the teeth on the mouthpiece), and practiced four, ten minute sessions. I practiced crossing the break and found middle B to be more difficult to produce than those up to the start of the 3rd octave ( which I doubt I'll ever be able to play). I don't remember having to blow this hard as a teenager !!
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-04-19 17:43
If middle B (Just above the break?) is hard to sound then you could have a leak in one of the big pads near the bell.
Tony F.
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Author: RKing
Date: 2017-04-19 22:40
Unfortunately, my teeth are not perfectly even, so I found it to be very beneficial to use a mouthpiece patch. It cushions my mouth just enough to be comfortable and my teeth do not slip or vibrate.
I was very happy when I received a Clark Fobes SF mpc and he put a patch on it before he shipped it out.
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-19 23:25
If a pad near the bell is leaking, wouldn't that be apparent with other tones, like low E ? How can I determine if one is leaking ? This is new to me. I googled the leaking question and did the suck method and bummed a cigarette from the maintenance guy at the apartment complex and performed the blow method. No leaks I could determine. I'd like to have the clarinet checked out, but there are no music stores in this out- in-the - middle- of- the - desert town snd I don't own a car.
Post Edited (2017-04-19 23:57)
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-20 00:43
Other than inexperience, I believe reed(s) could also be part of the middle B difficulty. I'm using Mitchell Lurie 2 1/2 and was disheartened to read that half of a box (or more) of them ( and other brands) could be defective. Sure makes a case for synthetic ones which I will try when I can afford to.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-04-20 02:45
Volatile wrote:
> I'm using Mitchell Lurie 2 1/2 and
> was disheartened to read that half of a box (or more) of them (
> and other brands) could be defective.
The 50% failure rate was probably the case back in the 1960s and 1970s, when the machines they were cut on weren't as precise and there were fewer competing brands to keep each other in line. If you were really finding that half of the box is unplayable, you either have the wrong strength or just don't like the profile of the reeds you're using. The reed should play with a full sound without having to clamp your mouth on it. You'll get more discriminating as you get your bearings, but the days are gone when, given a strength that goes well with your mouthpiece, half the reeds in a box just don't work.
That said, Luries tend to be less resistant than other brands, so pinching them off as you go over the break (and possibly grip the mouthpiece with your embouchure to help stabilize it) may be a possibility. What mouthpiece are you using?
> Sure makes a case for
> synthetic ones which I will try when I can afford to.
When you consider that one or two may keep you going for several months, they really aren't that expensive. In fact, depending on how long your cane reeds last, it may be much less expensive in the long run.
Karl
Post Edited (2017-04-20 04:05)
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-20 02:51
Thanks, Karl. The mouthpiece is a Yamaha 4C.
Randy
I was talking with my oldest son this morning and told him of all the forums I've joined I've received more sincere help in the short time I've been a participant here than any of the non musical ones I used to be a member of. Obviously a different class of people here.
Post Edited (2017-04-20 02:59)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-04-20 04:28
"If a pad near the bell is leaking, wouldn't that be apparent with other tones, like low E ?"
A small leak in the bottom pads has far less effect in the lower register than in the higher register.
Tony F.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-04-20 04:48
Volatile,
I don't believe in "mouthpiece magic" or mouthpiece miracles, but I can tell you that I would rather haul a 50 lb weight around suspended from my neck than try to play a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece. I seldom pinch or have trouble with my embouchure, but I would personally have nothing but trouble on the 4C. (I've tried many of those on students' clarinets and have yet to find a really good one). Save up and buy something easier to play that won't tax your lips so much. The Clark Fobes Debut and Nova models are good, the Vandoren M13 and the D'Addario Reserve X0 may be even better. At 73, I have played on all of those without pinching or getting excessive lip fatigue, and I'm thinking you probably can too. They have a good balance of interior dimensions, tip opening, and resistance curve. All of them sell new in many places for under $100 and are often available on the internet used at bargain prices.
Later on, if you find your embouchure more developed and want to experiment with a more open facing, I suggest trying a Vandoren B40 lyre (which has a very different feel from a regular Vandoren B40 or B45 and, for me at least, is much easier to control than those two well-known, open facings).
Post Edited (2017-04-30 02:52)
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-20 05:04
Seabreeze, I wondered about the mouthpiece too. I have an m13 on my Amazon wishlist.
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Author: RKing
Date: 2017-04-20 07:21
If you are thinking about an M13, then the Fobes Debut should work just as well. It's very inexpensive and worth a try.
I was happy with an M15, then had a chance to play the Fobes Debut. The next thing you know, I was playing a Fobes SF (with the same CF+ facing as he puts on the Debut) and my mouthpiece search had ended. It is so comfortable and effortless to play.
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-23 23:51
It seems as though my Yamaha ycl 250 is getting harder to blow. Yesterday I sat down to practice and air started leaking from my lips almost immediately. I have been rotating a half dozen Mitchell Lurie 2 1/2 reeds. One person from this forum tells me to tighten up my embouchure, another says I shouldn't have to. I'm using single lip and I have an upper full denture. From researching mouthpieces the only conclusion I come to is that everybody's lips, mouth, gums, teeth are different. I can't afford to deposit money with a dealer to try out different mouthpieces. I'm 71 and in good health. I'm buying a new mouthpiece, ligature and synthetic reed in the next couple of days, and I won't bother saying which brand and model, because I am not interested in hearing from naysayers. I believe it will be better than the used Yamaha that is on the instrument now. I'd like to hear from others with similar experience
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-04-24 00:20
Try playing a low E for eight counts and, while still blowing, touch the register key without changing anything else to produce a middle B for eight counts. Then do it for low F, F#, and G.
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-29 17:28
Since I hadn't played the clarinet for over 50 years, and the YCL 250 is used, I decided to send it to a guy in a neighboring (for the desert) town who specializes in repairing woodwinds to have the instrument checked out. He called and said it was in excellent condition and only made an adjustment to the bridge. A new ligature and synthetic reed will arrive on 5/1, and I'm buying a new mouthpiece next week. So if I have difficulties playing, I'll know it's due to operator error.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2017-04-29 19:03
I see you ordered a synthetic reed already. If it's a legere, remember that they do offer a onetime exchange of strength with the receipt. So if you ordered and it feels a little light or a little strong, you can send it back (check legere's website on how to do it) and you can exchange for one a little stronger or lighter as need be (if needed)
In general though, I personally (just my opinion) recommend AGAINST starting clarinet on a plastic reed. I think you should develop on cane. I think there's something to be said to learning how to adjust to different reeds in a box that are all slightly different, and dealing with good 'ol cane issues. I think it helps (without even trying) develop the ability to adapt to different reeds and environments that make reeds seem harder, softer, etc.
I COMPLETELY support legere reeds for intermediate and on up, after they've developed a good embouchure with the flexibility to adapt, and now they can just put a plastic reed on that they'll quickly adapt to, and they can focus on the music and technique.
Alexi
PS - Not intending to start a war on reeds or theories, and I know you got a plastic reed already, go for it and use it, but I think there's something to be said to learning and developing on cane reeds until you have a stable embouchure and stable preferred reed strength.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2017-04-29 20:08
I began playing clarinet for the first time when I was 70, and for a year or so I also had some embouchure troubles with air leaking after some time of playing. Now that occurs only rarely after prolongued playing. At the same time I began a bit of collecting fine vintage clarinets and so came across some quite good old mouthpieces between which I can choose. For years now I am preferring a (German system!) medium lengt/ medium opening mouthpiece equivalent to Wurlitzer 4/2.
I also contemplated switching to a plastic reed but till now stayed with "reed"- reeds strength 2 1/2 to 3 so I can try out a number of them for little money.
A propos Yamaha: the student grade (German system) Yamahas have quite a good reputation and are widely used over here- except the original Yamaha mouthpieces which are looked at as inferior and exchanged as soon as possible.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-04-30 01:19
Volatile wrote:
> ...I decided to send it to a guy in a neighboring
> (for the desert) town
I had to laugh at this. It's a standing joke in our family that, when we visit our daughter, who lives in Phoenix, EVERY trip to do or see ANYthing takes a minimum of three hours. Everything is just so spread out...
Karl
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-04-30 23:07
The reed I ordered is a Legere 2.25. I have been using Mitchell Lurie 2.5 for the past couple weeks and decided since it's very unlikely I will ever play with others, will probably not be more than a mid level beginner ( arthritis) and that I really don't want to fool with cane reeds, I'll probably stick with synthetic ones. I've been focusing on the embouchure for the past several days using the Yamaha mouthpiece and barrel and a tuning app for android phones. What I've read and watched about embouchure and posture has made a believer of me. I also have kyphosis so posture will always be an issue. MichaelW, your message was encouraging.
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-05-16 23:07
The Yamaha ycl 250 seemed to be getting progressively harder to blow after having it checked out by a woodwind tech. He said it was in excellent condition. I thought a weak embouchure and air support were the problems. A few days ago I was watching a Michelle Anderson on YouTube where she was talking about instrument related problems , specifically a loose mouthpiece. Problem solved. Although mine would only move a millimeter or so, I wrapped the cork with plumber's tape. I now actually enjoy practicing. Ordered a Vandoren mouthpiece that arrives tomorrow.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2017-05-17 00:45
Congrats on finding the problem! Nothing beats going from a frustrating-to-play instrument, to a joy-to-play instrument!
Fuzzy
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-05-21 06:09
As a beginning clarinetist, I began a low register left pinky exercise and discovered the "f" key has some play in it. It doesn't immediately close the hole as the right pinky one does. Is this something I can fix myself ?
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2017-05-22 20:25
I also had a fairly long break-in time when I returned to clarinet a few years ago, only with me I kept getting a bite in my lip. I didn't think my embrochure would ever toughen up, but then it just reached a tipping point and all the sudden it was fine. (Took about 3 months).
As far as air leaking. . . I run into that problem sometimes when I don't consistently practice every day. It's probably related to your problem in that your muscles are over used and under developed. The same thing happens to me when I take off three days of jogging -- muscles are muscles whether they are in your legs or embrochure.
I did want to mention something else. . . You mentioned that you didn't like the sound of a tenor recorder. Have you tried an Alto Recorder?
I played Tenor recorder in a recorder consort while in high school and thought it was ho-hum. But then I got an Alto Recorder, it opened up a world of solo and more interesting ensemble music. That plus I love the sound. Best of all, you can play the clarinet AND the recorder, switching off to the recorder to give your embrochure a rest.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-05-24 06:03
For me flute is the same way. I play flute because it is called for in big band, but alto flute totally rocks
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Author: Volatile
Date: 2017-07-03 19:42
I've been practicing on a Yamaha ycl 250 for about 3 months; four 15 minute sessions a day with 75% of that on fundamentals. Progress has been slow, and I've felt like smashing the clarinet against a wall a number of times. There are no teachers or even a music store in the small desert town where I live. Looking back after each practice, I can usually find something that's improved, even though it might seem trivial to a professional or accomplished amateur, as I know some of you are. I replaced the loose fitting Yamaha 4c mouthpiece with a Vandoren B 45 lyre shortly after acquiring the instrument thinking it would make blowing easier. I've read, here I think, that Legere reeds only work well with certain mouthpieces, the B 45 lyre isn't one of them. However, I'm sold on synthetic reeds, and the current setup is the B 45 lyre, Fibracell 2.5 reed and a Rovner Dark ligature. Crossing the break going up is improving, however I can only reach the B above the staff in the clarion register. I'm thinking a stiffer reed, stronger embouchure, and eventually a different mouthpiece will allow me to go higher. While practicing crossing the break, for example slurring a C below the staff to the clarion G, when I release the register key the horn continues to sound the high G. I know I've read why someplace , but can't remember where. So how/why does this occur ?
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