 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-04-16 01:58
I took on an old, very out-of-condition clarinet with the logo "Darog USA" to try to clean it up and donate it to the youth music program I work for, to lend to students who can't afford an instrument of their own. From what very little I can find about it online, it was never any better than an entry level clarinet, so I have no illusions about what it can be turned into.
I've been working on the upper section. I've replaced all the pads, and they seem to seat well. While the keys were off and the old pads were out, I buffed them to get rid of the grunge that had build up over decades of disuse and storage. The key action was sluggish to begin with, but I hoped that some cleaning and lubricating would fix at least most of it.
I now have it completely reassembled, and the key action almost universally over the entire section is still sluggish. I've cleaned all the hinge tubes, screws and rods, even the holes in the posts that the screws and rods go into, running an alcohol-soaked pipe cleaner through anything that was round and tubular. I've applied fresh oil to everything as I've assembled it. I've increased the tension on a few springs that seemed to be almost straight.
I've never worked on a clarinet that was in as bad shape as this one was when I started, and I'm willing to give in and make a lamp out of it if a better result is unlikely. But I'm wondering if there's anything I can try that might free things up apart from the cleaning and lubricating I've already done. It isn't just one key. Nothing is binding completely, but nothing moves smoothly or with any spring in the motion.
Thanks in advance for any advice,
Karl
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2017-04-16 03:32
Just one small thought. Using alcohol to cleanout the tubular bits is not very effective. Alcohol doesn't dissolve old grease. Use lighter fluid. Good luck.
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-04-16 04:09
Usually when an action is sluggish and doesn't respond to cleaning and lubrication the cause is a mechanical bind somewhere or a weak spring. Try to isolate the linkages to find the precise location of the bind. Possible causes are:
A weak spring.
A bent rod.
A tight screw.
One of the rings binding on the raised section of the tone hole.
Interference between moving parts such as at the crows foot.
An over-long tube binding on a post.
A pad cup binding on the edge of the seat recess.
Acetone also works well on crud build-up, but don't get it on plastic instruments.
Tony F.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-04-16 05:52
When I bought my first Boehm metal clarinet, the band leader said to oil it with olive oil, which I did, but it really became sluggish.
The best oil I know of for small woodwinds is the Music Medic light weight synthetic oil. It does make keys move faster.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-04-16 09:57
For every key that is sluggish, first check that it is smooth without the spring. Sometimes it's tricky and you have to sort of press the spring away so it doesn't touch the hinge anywhere. If the key is slightly binding without the spring it's very different from the spring being sluggish.
The former can be a result of a bent rod screw and/or hinge tube, misaligned or loose post, rust, bent pivot screw, pivot screw going too deep into the ends of hinge rods, and many other reasons.
Once you eliminate all of those, it could be the spring itself. Things like friction between the spring and the cradle, bad spring (material, not springy enough, bad length and/or thickness, etc.). Sometimes a post is loose but will move out of alignment only when you put the spring in the cradle, pushing it to the side. Rust can cause friction, especially for flat springs. For flat springs, sometimes they dig into the body (or metal plate if there is one) which causes this (it's often good to remove sharp edges from flat springs which helps prevent this in the future).
It could have been this way when it was made, but who knows, maybe someone replaced all springs with low quality springs at some point and you might have to replace them all to fix it.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-04-16 17:47
I did check the pivot rods and none was bent that I could see. While I'm re-cleaning with lighter fluid, I'll try rolling them on a flat surface to see if there are bends I can't see visually. I *have* checked that the keys with rods turn smoothly on the rods when off the clarinet. I had to rub a couple of them lightly with #400 wet-or-dry to get stuff off I couldn't really see, but the keys rotated smoothly after I did it.
I have wondered if the time over which the instrument wasn't played (and was being stored in who-knows-what conditions) the wood might have shrunk a little and made many of the distances between pivot posts too tight. I've oiled the bore several times and the wood looks quite dark and uniform, but this problem is pervasive.
What is the best way to check that the posts at opposite ends of a rod are aligned?
The lower section, which I haven't done anything to yet, is similar in its key action, especially the rings over the bottom tone holes.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-04-16 18:01
This is, I think, a valuable learning experience for me. I've done pad and cork replacement many times for my students and myself, but those instruments have always been in far better condition. Anything much beyond pads, corks and a little regulation of pad heights has always gone to the shop. I don't want to invest in tools and equipment beyond the simple ones I already have (maybe adding a specialized small hand tool or two.
One thing I have never done for myself - mostly because I've attempted it once or twice with resounding failure - is replacing needle springs. I've never been able, following the instructions I've read in various places, to flatten the end enough to get it to stay in the post. I think you heat the end, but even heated the steel seemed not to be the least disturbed by my attempts at it with a mallet. Do I need a hotter flame? Or is this not really the way to do it? If I've ever had a spring replaced on my own clarinets, I don't remember it or I would have watched closely and peppered the repairman with questions (I'm not bashful about asking questions, and I've always watched as my repairs are done).
This clarinet has nickel-colored round springs that I see on cheaper clarinets, not the tapered blue tempered steel ones that are on my own instruments. Is the technique for replacing a spring different between the two materials?
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-04-16 19:57
Unclear if you check the way I explained in the beginning of the previous post: "For every key that is sluggish, first check that it is smooth without the spring. Sometimes it's tricky and you have to sort of press the spring away so it doesn't touch the hinge anywhere. If the key is slightly binding without the spring it's very different from the spring being sluggish."
Start with keys where you can easily release the spring from its cradle and the key doesn't touch the spring. With some keys (operated by needle springs) you need to push the spring away to check (as explained above). With flat springs you need to remove the spring and mount the key without it to check.
It sounds like you pretty much checked that they move freely off the clarinet, so first verify whether the keys move freely on the clarinet, without the spring. Then continue from there.
>> I think you heat the end, but even heated the steel
>> seemed not to be the least disturbed by my attempts
>> at it with a mallet. Do I need a hotter flame?
I know some people heat the end, but I strongly recommend against it. for heat to make any difference, it has to be enough to "ruin" the spring temper. There's a huge risk (especially without experience) to ruin the spring. If you ruin the temper (i.e. temper it more) anywhere outside the post (actually slightly inside the post too) then it will completely ruin the way it works. Since it's possible to flatten anyway, it's not worth it IMO.
If you do use heat, it is crucial that the spring still has the same temper (i.e. not heated beyond its temper temp) for at least 1/3 and preferably about 1/2 of its length inside the post.
Another problem of softening the post part of the spring is that for a broken spring that is really stuck hard, the special pliers can actually dig into it instead of pushing it away, if it's too soft.
>> This clarinet has nickel-colored round springs that I see on
>> cheaper clarinets, not the tapered blue tempered steel ones
>> that are on my own instruments. Is the technique for replacing
>> a spring different between the two materials?
The technique is the same for almost all needle springs. Nickel colour springs are usually stainless steel or sometimes even steel. The blue is (usually) just the colour from tempering, it is just a type of steel (you can polish the colour off, though it helps against rust a little too). you can check if they are magnetic, though some stainless steel is magnetic too so it doesn't necessarily mean anything (nickel silver springs are another option, though almost no clarinets have them).
Stainless steel and non-blued steel springs vary a lot from excellent to terrible. If the springs seem thicker than usual it can be a sign that it's a poor material or temper (not so springy).
Replacing bad springs with good springs isn't so straight forward, because often the same diameter og a good spring would be too stiff for the key. Sometimes you'd need a thinner spring of a good material.
>> What is the best way to check that the posts
>> at opposite ends of a rod are aligned?
You can insert the rod screws in the posts without the keys. Wiggle the rod (usually there's some play in the post) and check how concentric it is with the threaded post i.e. how much it moves in each direction (check up, down and both sides). It's a simple way to get a good estimate.
By the way sometimes keys bind only when the rod screw is threaded all the way, as a result of a misalignment of the post face and the rod screw end part that goes against it, causing the screw to distort. so when doing the first test, if the keys (without spring) bind when screw is threaded all the way, open the screw a little and check that too.
>> the wood might have shrunk a little and made many
>> of the distances between pivot posts too tight.
I guess everything is possible but I've never seen clarinets where this was a problem for this reason.
It sounds like you haven't swedged the hinges or done anything to remove play? So check by moving the key hinges along their length, to check for play. If there is any play, the key isn't binding between the posts.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-04-16 21:35
clarnibass wrote:
> Unclear if you check the way I explained in the beginning of
> the previous post: "For every key that is sluggish, first check
> that it is smooth without the spring. ..."
>
Not yet - I haven't been back to the instrument since you posted this. It's first on my agenda.
> I know some people heat the end, but I strongly recommend
> against it. for heat to make any difference, it has to be
> enough to "ruin" the spring temper. ... Since it's possible to flatten anyway,
> it's not worth it IMO.
How do you do that? Did I just not hit it hard enough?
> >> What is the best way to check that the posts
> >> at opposite ends of a rod are aligned?
>
> You can insert the rod screws in the posts without the keys.
> Wiggle the rod (usually there's some play in the post) and
> check how concentric it is with the threaded post i.e. how much
> it moves in each direction (check up, down and both sides).
> It's a simple way to get a good estimate.
>
> By the way sometimes keys bind only when the rod screw is
> threaded all the way, as a result of a misalignment of the post
> face and the rod screw end part that goes against it, causing
> the screw to distort. so when doing the first test, if the keys
> (without spring) bind when screw is threaded all the way, open
> the screw a little and check that too.
>
When this happens on one of my clarinets, the repairmen I've gone to have reamed the screw seat out slightly to allow the screw to be tightened completely without binding. For the job at hand, backing a screw out slightly is much simpler and will do (and I don't have the reamer they use), but on a good instrument should it be left alone if a screw needs to backed off to unbind it?
> >> the wood might have shrunk a little and made many
> >> of the distances between pivot posts too tight.
>
> I guess everything is possible but I've never seen clarinets
> where this was a problem for this reason.
>
Thanks. I wasn't terribly invested in that explanation, but thought I'd ask.
> It sounds like you haven't swedged the hinges or done anything
> to remove play? So check by moving the key hinges along their
> length, to check for play. If there is any play, the key isn't
> binding between the posts.
Yes, I'll check that, although if anything I think the fit is quite tight between the some of the sleeves and their posts. Maybe too tight in some cases.
Thanks,
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-04-17 00:06
Maybe I did not learn how to replace springs, but I don't heat a new spring when I prepare it for use. I just give the end of the spring a few good whacks with a hammer against a piece of steel, flattening the end. Having replaced many, there have not been any failures. A good assortment of new springs is needed so that the new spring can be fitted into the hole precisely.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-04-17 09:44
>> How do you do that? Did I just not hit it hard enough?
Probably. You also need a hard enough material to hit it on/with, otherwise it would just dig into it. You can also press it flat if you have something with enough force for it.
>> the repairmen I've gone to have reamed the screw seat out slightly
>> to allow the screw to be tightened completely without binding.
That's true for pivot screws (at least some of them), but I was referring to rod screws. I'll try to explain better. The end of the rod screw hits the post face, but if there is some misalignment (either the post face, the rod screw, or both), the rod screw would bent only when fully tightened, causing the hinge tube to bind over it. There is no hole to ream farther in the hinge like on hinge rods mounted on pivot screws.
So check that for all keys, whether they are mounted on pivot screw or rod screws. First check if there's binding, without the spring, when screws are fully tightened. If there isn't then it's already a very good sign. If there is, check with the screw slightly loosened (loosen gradually and keep checking).
>> but on a good instrument should it be left alone
>> if a screw needs to backed off to unbind it?
It should ideally be fixed and not by leaving the screw not tightened. With pivot screws, weak Loctite (or equivalent) can be a very good option, actually almost as good as any repair. For rod screws it's more complicated and often doesn't work so well. It can get tricky to repair this issue but first better check if it's even an issue.
Once you can check whether there is any binding without the springs (then with screws completely tightened and loosened) then it will probably be possible to have better suggestions.
Post Edited (2017-04-17 09:46)
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