 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jonathan.wallaceadams
Date: 2017-02-19 02:28
Hello, all! As I've said in older posts, I'm a Junior in highschool who's been playing for just past 2 years. I'm learning a lot very quickly and the most recent thing that I've learned is that the Poulenc Clarinet Sonata is too mature of a piece for me. An instructor listened to me play it (I have all of the rhythms and notes down, there is no real strain from a technical standpoint) and commented saying that though I'm a fairly relaxed player, she could see and hear that I was slightly intimidated by the piece (which, honestly, I am.) She said "you seem like something is chasing you," and that "this piece is too mature for a highschool Solo and Ensemble competition."
I completely agree with her, but I don't want to play a piece and not give it the respect that it deserves, so I ask: how does one have a mature sound and how does one view a mature piece? Today was my solo and ensemble competition and I got a 1 (3 being the worst and 1 being the best), however I didn't get to go to state because I didn't memorize it. Any thoughts?
This is more of a music and expression question than a clarinet question.
Thank you!
Just an aspiring student.
Buffet Tradition
Mpc.: Hawkins "G", Barrel: Moba, Reeds: Reserve 3.5+
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-02-19 03:04
jonathan.wallaceadams wrote:
> how
> does one have a mature sound and how does one view a mature
> piece?
You probably won't be particularly happy with the answer. You develop maturity in anything through experience. We haven't heard you play the Poulenc, so we don't know what your teacher heard and was describing. But it's important that you've now had a first exposure to the piece than it is that you don't play it like a seasoned soloist. I'd be monumentally surprised if you play anything after two years' study with maturity or real insight. But, if you are truly able technically to handle this level of music, then all the more power to you for tackling it.
Keep working and keep listening to established players - not to imitate or copy their playing, but to hear the variety of styles that come out of different approaches and the ways in which those experienced players project their ideas about a piece to you. There is never one way to do anything musical.
Hopefully, your teachers over the next few years will give you ideas to think about without trying to dictate specific musical gestures. I remember being frustrated to the point of wanting to scream by a teacher, who was filling in for my major clarinet professor, as he dictated every crescendo, diminuendo, ritardando, accelerando, etc. and how much to make of each one. He would make me play the same passage over and over until it was exactly, perfectly....the way he would have played it.
Just keep playing, keep adjusting what you hear for yourself doesn't work, keep refining what does seem to be working, and give everything time to bake. And while you're at it, try to enjoy the experience.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-02-19 03:04
Listen to the world's top musicians - and that's ALL musicians and not just clarinettists. Listen carefully and intently as to what they do and how they shape things as music has far more than two dimensions.
As well as the notes they do play, also consider everything else they do that isn't written down and goes beyond what's on the printed page. I don't know how to describe it, but you'll understand what I mean when you hear it.
If you can watch masterclasses or even attend any live masterclasses given by world class musicians in your area, then do that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-02-19 03:23
It's hard to decipher what the teacher was trying to say. "This piece is too mature for you" is rather vague: it could be an attempt to spare your feelings or a bit of empty sophistry.
But in general, I think discouraging a student from playing a piece because he/she lacks maturity is BS--especially if the teacher leaves it at that, which seems to be what happened to you as you're here, seeking advice. Aside from the unbecoming power dynamic--i.e. the teacher possesses some form of knowledge that's being withheld from the student--it isn't particularly helpful for you to think you aren't intellectually ready for certain pieces. How are you going to become "musically mature" if you avoid those pieces? Who's going to tell you when you are ready for the Poulenc, some other teacher? (Again, the power dynamic is at play.)
Becoming musically mature is more of a process, for which there isn't ever a moment when you say "finally, I've arrived, I'm musically mature." Great artists always rethink the way they perform pieces--in other words, they're always "maturing."
I don't think there's a single thing that can help you; your teacher, however, should be guiding you through the process of interpretation. And as you learn more about music, composers, art, life, etc., you may find the interpretive process becomes richer. A few years ago, for instance, I took a year-long compositional harmony course taught by a Boulanger disciple; it made me rethink the way I play music in general (I developed a finer ear for harmonic color by way of chord voicings, doublings, and spacings) and French music in particular. So perhaps reading, listening, and attending concerts could be a place to start.
Apologies if I failed to answer anything and instead opened up new questions for you.
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Author: jonathan.wallaceadams
Date: 2017-02-19 03:49
So, the path to being a mature musician isn't a straight line? It's like experiencing others' styles and creating your own, not just for a piece but for all of your playing? I've listened to great people play this Sonata. Martin Frõst was technical and clear in every register and added miniature pauses throughout the piece to indicate phrase changes. His tone echoes and seems the resonate naturally. Gervase De Peyer had a bright, warm sound and somehow makes the clarinet sound like a saxophone (in a good way) and sprinkles in expressive vibratos to make the piece grow. Wenzel Fuchs dances with the music. His phrases swell and move the listener. I listened to a lot.
Are you saying that the more exposure I have to all music, not just this piece or timbre, the more "mature" of a musician I'll be?
Just an aspiring student.
Buffet Tradition
Mpc.: Hawkins "G", Barrel: Moba, Reeds: Reserve 3.5+
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2017-02-19 03:58
I think one of the beauties of playing music is how your view of any particular piece changes as you experience life, get good instruction, and internalize all kinds of music you hear and perform. So I would say, why not play a piece if you have the technical ability to do a good job? One of my joys is to pick up a piece I played when younger and see how my views have changed. I look at being a musician as a process with no stopping points, no such thing as perfection. If you believe you could never improve on a performance with which you are justly proud at the time, then you are fooling yourself. All in all, I would say go for it.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2017-02-19 07:05
Congratulations to you for getting a I rating! In which state do you live? I didn't know that memorization is still required anywhere, and if it is in your state, it's probably one of the few in which it's still a requirement. In Michigan, memorization was required until 1968 (the first time I went), but it hasn't been necessary for at least the last 47 years.
You're asking a great question when you bring up the point about a piece being "too mature." High school students regularly play the Mozart concerto and it's on many state lists, but it's a piece graduate students sometimes study seriously. The same is true for the Brahms sonatas. In fact, I once heard someone say that no high school student should perform these sonatas. Continuing with this reasoning, one could make the case that no high school student should perform the Weber concertos or concertino, the Schumann Fantasy Pieces, or the Saint-Saens sonata.
I strongly disagree. High school is a time for exploring and trying new things. A high school student might not play the Poulenc sonata with the same level of maturity as a professional, but so what? As John correctly points out, "why not play a piece if you have the technical ability to do a good job?" You can always go back to it later, and perhaps you'll approach it in a different way.
If you had made a mess of the Poulenc sonata, that would have been one thing. Since you received a I, you clearly didn't! Be proud of the fact that you took on a challenging piece and did well with it. I'd ignore this talk about the piece being too mature for a high school solo and ensemble competition. The Edison Denisov sonata perhaps--but not this one.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2017-02-19 18:07
"Are you saying that the more exposure I have to all music, not just this piece or timbre, the more "mature" of a musician I'll be?"
Yes.
FWIW, I grew up in Ohio, and performed the first movement of the Poulenc my senior year. (At that time there was no state contest and memorization was just not necessary.) Other years I played the following: 9th grade-Mozart Concerto/first movement with cuts, 10th grade-Brahms 2nd/first movement, 11th grade-Weber 1st Concerto/first movement. I got 1's each time. (Well, ok, in 9th grade the judge put "1-" because I clearly wasn't ready for it but at the same time didn't completely not earn a 1.)
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-02-19 18:56
I call hogwash. Musicality is a skill that can be lead and taught. My fellow posters are spot on...listen...listen to everything. From Frost to Depeche Mode. I played the 1st Mvt of Poulenc as a freshmen in HS and made a 1st Division at state (Texas) UIL. I'd hope your teacher would lead you in shaping musical ideas and perhaps throw in your own thoughts.
I seriously doubt I had any more skill than you did, for the amount of time we've been playing since beginning clarinet, when you played the Poulenc.
Bravo for attempting an exceptional piece of music. I say go grab the Mozart (go grab Debussy, go grab Rossini) and keep moving forward!
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Chanson
Date: 2017-02-20 04:55
While I think musicality is a skill that can be taught to students, I think that the "musical maturity" your teacher is talking about is perhaps just the life experience that you bring to your interpretation. There is definitely a matter of sensuality and darkness to that piece that is more easily relatable to older players.
That being said, Poulenc loved the music of younger musicians and people actually thought he was kind of weird for it. I say play the piece; get it under your fingers and in your head now so that by the time you have some more life experience, you'll already have some things worked out when you revisit it.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-02-20 05:53
I also disagree with the statement that it's "too mature for highschool". I don't know what your teacher was trying to say, but if it is worth playing, it is worth playing in high school. Sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is giving you good advice, and when they are just being discouraging. Helpful criticism is enabling. IMO people put too much emphasis on getting everything right the first time. It's usually better to just go for it.
It's awesome that you are playing Poulenc! It's ok if you are somewhat intimidated, or if it doesn't sound quite as good as you would like. You have only been playing two years. That's a great accomplishment! Keep working!
It's ok to go on to something new right now, since you did well on Poulenc. You will learn new things with each new piece. You will also keep going back to the same things over and over as you improve. Don't worry too much about whether you are ready, or mature enough. Always give it a try, no matter how intimidating. That's how you learn.
You can show respect for the music by learning it.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-02-20 10:35
Memory is an interesting subject. Some very few selected conductors can memorize complete scores. It's a gift in these cases and very hard work. I've played under conductors where their faces are glued to the music.
If you have memory problems it could be a sign of a form of dyslexia to a number of other problems, or it could be just sitting down while and memorizing a line at a time then playing it. We've all seen the very best players in the world have a music stand in front of them. I personally don't mind. What bothers me more are players dancing all over the place when performing!
Nice job at getting a 1 rating.
I will be playing the Mozart Quintet again sometime this year. It's sometimes best to know the other players parts really well. Do you need to memorize their parts, no. But the second movement is scary for all of the players. It's easy to get lost or to get off just a beat and as the clarinetist, the lead player, it is up to you to keep the strings together. This can mean signaling the downbeat of the next bar to when a cello player needs to come in from a rest or if the player came in a beat too early. This is just an example of how to prevent a major disaster when performing. I feel this second movement is the hardest of this quintet, because it is slow and confusing if you aren't prepared.
So do you need to memorize pieces. I think if you don't have any disabilities you should and you should also know other players parts as well.
A very great comment. Some great people just can't handle memorizing. You are still very young so give it a try and start slowly. A few measures at a time, then a line at a time. Soon you should have a piece memorized. Hope this helps and for the record I disagree with that school systems requirements, but it is required at pretty much every competition and it's been this way for as long as I can recall.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-02-20 23:42
I recently thought it was odd Texas UIL was requiring solos to be memorized to advance to state from region. In addition they have to be memorized for the state competition.
There are some exceptions on their pre-approved clarinet solos. In general if a student plays an entire concerto, they don't have to memorize it...Brahms, Mozart, Weber, ect.
But single movements must be memorized, including things like Weber's Concertino in order to advance to state. A student doesn't have to memorize...they just can't go to the next level.
I quizzed some band directors on the change. The general consensus is was to discourage so many participants at state solo and ensemble. It became a logistical nightmare at UT Austin having so many kids coming from the entire state for two days. The memorization rule has been effective in cutting down so many people going to State.
On a personal note, State UIL was getting a lot of people who probably should be there. The general rule of thumb was a first division at region equates to a third division at state. Receiving a first division at state UIL is rare and frankly a remarkable achievement. Memorizing weeds out some of those participants. I'd never consider a student with a learning disability. The rule certainly seems unfair to those participants.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-02-21 06:00
I wouldn't assume that because someone did not memorize a piece, that they cannot, nor assume that difficulty memorizing amounts to a disability.
That said, having a disability, especially a hidden one, is a liability. The world is designed for what most people see (rightly or wrongly) as "normal". For example, people tend to assume that everyone can drive, which makes it very difficult if you can't. In requiring memorization, Solo and Ensemble may quite innocently be making what it sees as a reasonable demand for most students. Unfortunately, there may be a small minority of talented young musicians for whom this is an unreasonable burden. Someone will reply that you cannot be a musician unless you can memorize whole works. Even if that were true, I'm sure that most would agree that there should be opportunities for young students who can play beautiful music, even if they can't memorize everything. It's Solo and Ensemble, not Carnegie Hall. I'm sure it's better to memorize, but requirements ought to be balanced with consideration of what is really important at that level. I'm sure there are plenty of kids who can memorize easily without being particularly interested in music.
It seems to me that society has become increasingly obsessed with a lot of arbitrary requirements for virtually everything. We are obsessed with vetting and eliminating. We often forget that it is better, and in the long run more productive, to positively identify ability and potential. In my view we are too rigid, and increasingly intollerant. Even all the focus on disability and accommodations can turn into an obstacle, because not everyone who deserves reasonable consideration meets the criteria we invent for "disabled", and as a result are prevented from getting what little assistance or considerstion they may need.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2017-02-21 06:06)
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Author: jonathan.wallaceadams
Date: 2017-02-21 22:58
Like Robert was referring to, I'm in Texas.
Even though I can't continue to compete with his piece of music, I'm trying to interpret it in new ways each day. I want to keep growing as a musician and continue improving. Seeing as next year is my last year before college, I want to make it as far as I can during TMEA All-Region/Area/State and also make it to UIL State Solo and Ensemble. Over this next summer, I want to continue improving technically and get up to Level 5 according to David Hite's A Clarinetist's Study Guide. (I know people who can play Adagio and Tarantella and get a division 1, but don't know what an arpeggio is. Is this a flaw with the music education system? My short time in music has had a huge emphasis on theory and technique, so this seems strange to me.)
Anyway, what should my next steps toward attempted "clarinet greatness?" Over the next few months, I'm going to try to get through all of my major and minor scales and arpeggios, work through Rose etudes 26, 6, 11, and 19. I'll pick the best 2 for auditions. Additionally, I have to play through the first movement of the Mozart concerto for nearly all of my college auditions. What I'm looking for most is a direction.
Basically, I'm trying to make up the 3 years that I'm behind in music (compared to my peers) in 6 months. Is this possible?
Just an aspiring student.
Buffet Tradition
Mpc.: Hawkins "G", Barrel: Moba, Reeds: Reserve 3.5+
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-02-21 23:37
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Method-Clarinet-Third-Division/dp/0825802156/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487705685&sr=8-1&keywords=baermann+book+3
Here's a link for Baermann's Book 3. It's the bet $20 you'll spend to improve your clarinet player (my opinion). It needs to become your best friend this summer. It has it all scales, thirds, arpeggios, etc. If you practice this (cleanly then increase tempo), you can't help to become a better player. Yes you can easily pass your peers.
Where are you in Texas?
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-02-21 23:38
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Method-Clarinet-Third-Division/dp/0825802156/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487705685&sr=8-1&keywords=baermann+book+3
Here's a link for Baermann's Book 3. It's the bet $20 you'll spend to improve your clarinet player (my opinion). It needs to become your best friend this summer (and frankly for the rest of your clarinet life). It has it all: scales, thirds, arpeggios, etc. If you practice this (cleanly then increase tempo), you can't help to become a better player. Yes you can easily pass your peers.
Where are you in Texas?
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-02-22 00:02
jonathan.wallaceadams wrote:
> Basically, I'm trying to make up the 3 years that I'm behind
> in music (compared to my peers) in 6 months. Is this possible?
>
I'd say it depends on your level of commitment, the time you have available (in hours per week) to commit to the process, and your honesty in assessing your own results as you go. You'll need to listen to yourself at least as critically as a teacher would and if you hear something wrong, fix it. Don't gloss over it and think "oh, it doesn't matter - no one will notice." Learning effective practice techniques is at least as important as putting in practice time - time spent ineffectively is wasted. Take difficulties as challenges to be overcome and not obstacles to your progress. And a supportive teacher who will help with technical issues and provide positive guidance with musical ones is probably indispensable.
Karl
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Author: jonathan.wallaceadams
Date: 2017-02-22 00:54
I'm in the Central Texas area (Waco-Temple-Belton) During the summer, there are nearly no instructors available to help unless I drive 2 hours in either direction. So, Baermann, check. Anything else? Solos, repertoire, etc.?
Just an aspiring student.
Buffet Tradition
Mpc.: Hawkins "G", Barrel: Moba, Reeds: Reserve 3.5+
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-02-22 09:21
Lots of people here can advise you better than me, but sometimes it's not explained why you have to learn things slowly, especially scales. It's not because you have to start at your level and slowly and obsessively work your way up. There are two reasons...
1. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you are working on something and keep playing it wrong (or just not very well), you are actually teaching yourself to play it wrong. You have to slow down to get it right. You will learn it more quickly by taking your time.
2. You slow down because that's how your brain works. It is actually much harder to play it slowly. You think it sounds better when you go a little faster because you don't notice everything wrong with it. When you slow down you can hear everything wrong! If you play it slower, focusing on smooth transitions between all the notes, evenness if tone, support, relaxed fingers, holding the instrument still, and all that, you will find that speed comes very quickly and easily. For the most part, if you can play it slow, you can play it fast. Your body remembers. Playing extremely fast may require working up to it, but you have to be able to play it slow first. You will notice a huge difference.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: eac
Date: 2017-02-22 20:15
ar·peg·gi·o. ärˈpejēˌō. noun:
the notes of a chord played in succession, either ascending or descending.
No need to disparage the music education system if you haven't been presented a concept or term, just google it! No class or course can cover all the ideas, terms or concept on any given topic. The internet has put an encyclopedia of information at out fingertips and keyboards.
Liz Leckey
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