 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-16 20:29
This is a scary subject for me to touch on, because it will or could anger a lot of players and instrument makers.
So I will be gentle as I can be, leaving out names, but I can't leave out countries in general.
In the early days to the present we all want that warm German clarinet Albert clarinet sound. Players like Sabine Meyer sound so great. So what is the secret to this special sound. It's the same piece of wood, the same metal keys, a mouthpiece, and some sort of ligature and the reed of course.
Lets start with the reeds and the mouthpieces, they are narrower. That's it. In fact I've measured a lot of them and the bore and the baffles are shallower than the standard French mouthpieces. so they should play brighter. Right? A shallow baffle/chamber? That usually means brighter. If you are not sure take some puddy or children's clay and put it inside your mouthpiece and it will get brighter.
The bore is much smaller too. So you can stick tape inside the bore and see if it makes the notes more mellow and tune better.
These are simple and very easy experiments to try, but to save you time the answers are the sound will be brighter and the pitch will be all over the place.
So non German companies did something very wrong, because they do not have professional musical ears. They sadly confused the words DARK and WARM. The non German companies make the clarinets with much bigger bores now. After all it makes sense. Tubas have big bores and sound dark and low in pitch, so lets make the clarinet bores bigger too. that will give that dark low pitch. And several mouthpiece companies did the same thing ans tune everything to 440.
The results were dark and dull sounding horns. This is the problem They made the bores and the baffle/chambers too deep. on the mouthpieces and the horns.
The Gernan horns are a shade heavier and the bores are smaller on the horns. But this does come with its own set of problems. Playing jazz it a lot harder. The horns are tight and limited.
So the non German companies made a mistake by mixing up the words dark and warm. I't is very hard to project a sound using a dark sounding setup. You won't be heard very well in a concert hall, however in a practice room you will sound FANTASTIC! That is not the sound you want.
We want that warm sound. That PING to the sound. Up close in a practice room it may sound a shade buzzy to a shade bright to your ears, but in an orchestra hall it rings and mellows out.
This is the difference between Dark and Dead and Warm and Full.
Together as musicians we can get these companies to listen to us. Yamaha is taking us seriously with doing major things such as designing German bores called the CSG clarinet. Please try one. It is a straight bore, no tapers and every note is clean. The CSVG is really close with the leather pad, which warm up the sound, and it doesn't darken the sound. This is why people like John Bruce Yeh with the Chicago Symphony are using it, it's good for jazz and he does like jazz as well as myself. It's not as warm as a Gernam horn, but it is not DEAD either.
Hope this makes sense. I'm sure a lot of people will respond in many ways. But remember change is good. Paying $3000 for an R13 or paying $29,000 for a set of other instruments just isn't right, but lets face it that GREAT clarinet sound is a bit lost right now and there are so many gifted musicians who can get that sound back. I'm referring to Harold Wright, Marcellus, and Gennusa, but there are so many new players who could and should probably sound even better with the right setup. We must let the instrument makers and mouthpiece makers know the difference between warm and dark. There is that happy medium.
My final comment is some of the new mouthpiece baffle/chambers are a 1/32" DEEPER than the old Chedevilles and Kaspars. That is the size of the lower joint of your clarinet where the cork and the wood meet; that wood area. That translates to dark and dead. Deeper is simply wrong. Think brighter and you may find yourselves winning more positions in major orchestras to your local community band.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-11-16 21:27
It has been the case for some time that people have been going in that direction. You are right that sometimes the clarinet gets buried in an ensemble because it has lost its ring or sparkle. Often the "dark" sound can be dull and sounds good sitting alone in a practice room but does not translate to the hall. There really needs a be a well balanced set of overtones. It gives the player more to work with. Many years back I had a conversation with David Hite about this. He complained that the clarinet voice was becoming lost in the woodwind section due to this quest for "dark".
You can hear so many great players at
http://rharl25.wixsite.com/clarinetcentral/american-players
It is a tremendous resource. Sometimes the true sound and depth is lost somewhat in the early recording technology, but you can still hear the unmistakeable ring and resonance that you don't hear enough of anymore.
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Author: James S
Date: 2016-11-16 23:03
Bob,
I think you're right on your observation of increasingly-large French bores. Interestingly, some makers are starting to shrink their bores just a little in the name of stability. Also, did you get my email?
JS
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-11-16 23:39
But bore size is only a single factor in the tone equation.
Many German makers have used quite large bores
I have worked on Shwenk & Segglke Reform clarinets with big bores
Many Viennese clarinets had bores of 15+ mm
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2016-11-16 23:40
Thanks for you comments, Bob. Your thoughts about tone quality and being heard may play into your earlier post about fellow musicians judging your playing in orchestras. One of my jaw dropping experiences was to play with the 2nd clarinetist of a regional professional orchestra. While sitting next her to I thought she sounded terrible with an irritating raspy tone.....but when I had the opportunity to hear her from the audience, she sounded glorious! I gained a lot of respect for what it takes to be a fine orchestral player and when I hear conductors berating clarinetists about needing to play louder, louder, louder, I know what they really mean is to play with a tone that would penetrate to the back of the hall.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-17 00:13
Well thanks for the replies as many more are sure to come. Please remember I am not ruling out players with fine sounds, the players listed above pretty much everyone has either heard them live or has recordings of them. I won't state his name, but one friend studied with 2 out of the 3 of them and he knew all 3 very well. He felt Gennusa had the best sound, but it doesn't matter, they were all great.
My goal is to get the companies to pay attention and hire these very fine players and get back to the basics. Then play around and see if we can make these great players sound better than people like Gennusa. Gennusa didn't have the fast fingers as some of the present players, couldn't articulate or circular breath such as players like Julian Bliss and so many others. What if that sound came along with these amazing players. All I can think of is WOW!!! I have a great sound, but it isn't like Gennusa's, although I had 7 years of lessons from him. It's darn good for sure. Equal to any symphony player. But we need that special person to come out of the woodwork that can sound like Iggie and the others and bring the clarinet world to that needed new level.
We have the players!!! We need to get that sound back. It's exciting! We don't need special Buffet Divine horns at $19,000 that doesn't work. Just an R13 made correctly, with someone that knows the difference between warm and dead. I've offered my services for FREE to Buffet and Vandoren. They igmored me.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-11-17 04:41)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2016-11-17 01:27
As Norman wrote, it can't simply be a matter of bore size. Consider all the fabulous British/Australian players who (at least until relatively recently) managed to sound wonderful both live and on recordings using their large-bore Boosey & Hawkes clarinets.
There are SO many factors, but ultimately, we all tend to mess around with equipment (reeds, mouthpieces, instruments, even ligatures) until we attain or at least come close to the tonal character we WANT to achieve. In other words, the trends (fads?) in clarinet sound are really the product of changes in players' tonal concept, rather than the equipment. I think.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-11-17 03:05
We need a knob to twist on our instrument that varies from "absolute darkness" to "laser weapon".
A former principal clarinetist here at the Arkansas Symphony moved from the UK playing Yamaha YCL-85 B-flat and YCL-65 A clarinets and a Vandoren A2 Crystal and VD German cut reeds. Sound was centered, exciting, driving, projecting (with no harshness) and sweet. After he secured his position, the conductor said to him "OK Paul, I am gonna let you play principal, as long as you will promise to darken your tone". Of course, his sound was no accident and was labored on for years to achieve. He kept this setup for jazz and one solo work (Copland Concerto), but changed to R13s/5RV-lyre/heavier reeds to satisfy his orchestra spot and blend with the 2nd clarinet and keep the conductor happy, although I doubt the conductor ever listened from the back of the hall. A shame I thought, when Paul caved in to the "dark side".
And, lately I am back on a Yamaha 650 (where are the SEVR clarinets in the USA?), which seems to be smaller bore with correspondingly larger tone holes. And using a plain 5RV pitched at 442 with a selected barrel to play about 440. Hold, core, high note stability and tuning with overall clarity and sound is wearing a light woolen sweater. So, Bob may be on to something and I may be moving in the right direction ...
Tom
Post Edited (2016-11-17 04:46)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-17 04:50
You are ALL correct. That knob idea is actually a realistic concept if we think about it and dig deeper into designs.
About 6 to 8 weeks ago I saw on TV Ricardo with the Philly Orchestra playing on a crystal mouthpiece. I don't know why, I don't recall the piece. I'm not sure if he's still using it. It doesn't matter. But he too for some reason was looking for some sort of sound that day. I have his email and phone number, but I'm surely not calling him every time I see him doing something different.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-17 05:09
One time I was on stage with Gennusa and he asked me to move a few chairs around while he warmed up, no one was on stage yet. I was 19, happy to hear him on stage. He moved his chair around for about for perhaps 5 minutes in different positions and finally said "This is where I'm playing tonight." he heard that ring. My job was to fix and try to place all of the messed up chairs in some sort of order!
In a room that had a carpet in it, Bob Marcellus and I were messing around with the old German Steuer reeds and then he asked me how he sounded on this Morre' reed. We have to be VERY CAREFUL with our choice of wording with Bob. I said the reed was buzzy and a shade bright with a nice spine to the sound. NOTE - I didn't say he had a buzzy sound! He said perfect, that's what I'm looking for.
It is becoming very clear that we ALL want the same thing. If Buffet, Vandoren, and Backun wish to reconsider my free offer they know where I am. Vandoren approached me at the ClarinetFest, Buffet was supposed to show up there, and Backun blew me off at the NAMM Convention. Yamaha didn't, they went out of their way to find me. So there is great hope ahead of us if these bigwigs will listen.
If we post wonderful positive articles maybe these companies will come forward. Lets hope so.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-11-17 07:27)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2016-11-17 10:02
I'm studying with Michele Zukovsky and have tried her Wurlitzers a few times. They are certainly "dark/warm" and very focused, but not dead at all! They have a beautiful ring and life to the sound. However, Michele maintains that you can achieve that kind of a sound on a French instrument too. I'm working on it.
An interesting note: German clarinets are bright instruments paired with dark mouthpieces, and French instruments are dark instruments paired with bright mouthpieces. When you put a German mouthpiece on a French clarinet (which we tried), it's too dark of a combination. It becomes dead sounding and loses that "ping."
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Author: gwie
Date: 2016-11-17 11:01
It's so interesting you mention this idea.
One of my newer clarinet students (a transfer who has been playing for six years) has commented that when sitting right next to me, my tone is "bright" relative to his. Of course, this student has just about the darkest, deadest, flattest sound you can imagine, with a complete lack of articulation to go with it. I finally recorded the two of us playing with orchestra together, and he was absolutely fuzzled when he heard himself...apparently he had never really experienced the results of the "dark at all costs" approach to clarinet tone.
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2016-11-18 04:10
This is a fascinating topic. My first goal in learning the clarinet is to pass an exam, which will be conducted in a small room. I guess I will be better off sounding very dark at the expense of projection? What kind of mouthpiece and instrument combo will give me the best chance of achieving that?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-18 05:03
maxopf - Michele is a sweetie! Before she retired once in awhile I'd get an email from her at 1 AM in the morning sometimes later! We are both night owls I guess. Talking about reeds, her final concert and her new life! Getting married just before retiring! And yes, what a great sound! Dang, she joined the LA Philharmonic around the age of 18, probably the youngest and longest female ever to hold a post in an orchestra. It's probably a record that may never be broken. Every step she took she was surrounded by a massive group of friends. She played wonderfully at the ClarinetFest and we had a nice chat on the plane going there and a few times when she stopped by the booth to take a break.
You have a great teacher! Please say hello for me and I'll be sending her an email real soon!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-11-18 05:04)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-18 06:41
wkleung - No I kind of disagree. It's more about what your ears hear. Within just a few feet or less everything changes. I MUST recap a few things here. When Marcellus and Gennusa played in front of me, within just a few feet, I freaked out. I had goose bumps. They sounded that great. The sound was magical.
My point is Bob asked me to describe the reed. I did what he asked. I didn't say his sound sucked! I said the reed sounded a shade bright, buzzy, with a nice spine. This is 2 feet away. When each of us play we often don't hear the same thing that someone hears just 1 inch away from us. It's sort of like putting ear plugs in your ears, the sound is different. A player hears totally differently than someone just inch away. This is sooo important to remember and to take note of and remember for LIFE.
A conversation with Ricardo with the Philly Orch. said he uses a different plastic for the orchestra and a different plastic reed for teaching in the small studio. Point taken he is hearing differently. He wants a sound for different sized places.
This follows exactly what Iggie and Marcellus were looking for.
One trick I learned from Iggie was to sometimes practice with those buzzing alarm clocks ringing. This often helps you hear if you and the reeds are projecting correctly in a small room. You can hear that ring and that ping. It's sort of like playing in an orchestra. You know know what volume to play that ppp solo to that fff solo.
So in a hall you want your sound to bounce all over the place. Ring everywhere. Sadly most halls suck, like the Kennedy Center in Washington, DC. The New Eastman hall in Rochester, NY is a lot better, they took out about 300 seats and moved the walls inward. Smart move.
All of these guys know exactly what they what.
The reeds were just fine. DO NOT play with a dark setup at any audition. I'd much rather see you play on a 1960's plastic Bundy clarinet and a 1940's Brilhart mouthpiece, and I'm not kidding here. You will be heard and the sound will be just fine. I'm trying to let everyone aware of the difference between warm and dark. It's such a fine line. When you audition in a dead room you really want a good bright sound that carries even in a small room. If you are playing the Mozart Concerto you can hold back the forte's a shade, such as in the second movement. Whenever I play that piece, the second movement, get in the HEAD of this crazy guy. He loved to dance with the ladies. No TV then, so on Friday nights everyone went dancing. Think of him dancing so smoothly with the ladies. I often press DOWN on the keys THEN slowly lift the keys to the next notes for ease and gracefulness. You don't want that punk rock feel with bouncing heads flying everywhere But the most graceful and romantic R rated ballet. If you press down ever so slightly and gently on the keys first, you are gaining complete control of the tiny nerves and muscle endings in your finger tips. Complete LOVE instead of your first time slow dancing and stepping on the toes of that person at 12 years old and he of she takes a flying leap to the floor knocking down a few other 12 year old friends! Good times back then Sorry, couldn't help to add some humor here.
The very top pro's often get lost with the correct sound, so if they are lost well their students are, the instrument makers are, and it's now a mess. In a few years we could soon see some MAGIC coming out of horns if these instrument makers; will listen to us. I think so. As players we do NOT need $29,000 horns to achieve this. We can do this with $2000, Maybe $1000, some great sound engineers and some great sounding players. Lets get together and say farewell to the Divine $19,000 horns, when a $1000 horn can sound just as good.
Remember folks, Bob Marcellus played on a pre R13 horn. in the Cleveland Orchestra. Dated around 1928. Yes Hans Moennig did his magic to it, but Bob played on it for most of his amazing Cleveland career. People thought he played on R13's. Well he did. But that '28 was his main joy. Nothing fancy, a smaller straight barrel Buffet. He probably paid $75 for it. Hans probably charged him $25 or less.
I probably won't post anything else on this topic unless needed, such as a company calling me for advice and I will pass on the word. A huge hint to the makers out there! Still FREE of charge! I make amazing mouthpieces mainly by hand, but I'll share my knowledge to Vandoren. I like Bernard Vandoren. We met at Rico about 25 years ago. A great guy! I'll talk with Selmer and Buffet. I will surely be Yamaha's right hand man. They are sooo close to getting it right. Anyway, I've said enough. Everyone understands or will start to understand. Of course there is a learning curve. We have to break a major error from Buffet going back to the mid 1970's when Buffet went to their large bore.
Cheers to that sweet sound coming back!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2016-11-18 16:50
Hi Bob,
Any of your mouthpieces made it over here to London or the UK in general? Would be curious to try.
Thanks
Peter Cigleris
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2016-12-02 15:18
Hi Bob,
I decided to re-wake this thread because I strongly agree with what you said. I do favour a warm sound with a full spectrum of high and low partials, and with a fair amount of focus and clarity. There was a time I was also into this "dark" hype, but soon I found that overdoing it will create a mushy, unfocused tone. As Ed has said above, a fair amount of overtones and focus is needed in order to have a good tone that projects. When I realized this I started to have significant improvements in my tone.
Such a tonal concept is equally important on the bass clarinet. I remember a professional musician once told me that orchestras look for a big dark sound on the bass. However, after listening and play-testing a number of bass clarinets and mouthpieces for some time, both Boehm and Oehler, I found this statement not necessarily true. The most amazing bass clarinet sounds I've heard did have a good amount of overtones, or should I say, have the entire spectrum of harmonics from high to low. Some darker bass clarinet sounds however, sounded very mushy and do not project well.
In an email conversation with Clark Fobes he mentioned that his design concept of his MPs includes having enough overtones in order to project well. And I have never been happier with my playing ever since I started playing his MPs earlier this year. Mind you, I am not trying to tell you what to use and buy, but to emphasise how that fair amount of "ping" contributes to a great sound.
Josh
Post Edited (2016-12-02 15:19)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-12-02 23:14
edit
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2016-12-02 23:38)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-02 23:56
cigleris - The Bboard doesn't allow me to advertise for good reasons. I fully respect their and honor their rules, since you asked, kindly send me an email to savagesax@aol.com.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2016-12-02 23:58
Sure thing Bob, I'll drop you a line.
Thanks and best wishes
Peter Cigleris
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