 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bjazz
Date: 2016-09-26 22:54
Hi Guys, Me again,
Having just upgraded my clarinet to Buffet, I have tried to begin using my new Vandoren 5RV Mouthpiece (Not Lyre), I was given some Vandoren Juno 2.5 reeds by the lady who sold me the clarinet in the store as she noted my problem with breathing, embouchure and posture and so I have gone with this setup.
It is really hard getting to grips with it and particularly getting the middle long 'b' above throat 'a' to speak without a lot of difficulty especially when slurring up from throat 'a' and when starting on the note 'b'.
Generally it's just not as easy as when I was using the Yamaha 4c with a Vandoren 3.0 or Rico Plasticover 3.0, neither of which I can even think about using with the Vandoren Mouthpiece as they just sound stuffy and there is no control at all with expressive playing styles.
So my question is, why should a player need to upgrade from the Yamaha mouthpiece in any case? is it really an improvement or is there a more technical reason why it should be done in terms of improving playing standards?
I would hate to think I made an unnecessary change and set myself back a year just for the sake of a brand name?
what do you think?
cheers,
cliff
Post Edited (2016-09-26 22:58)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2016-09-26 23:16
A 2.5 sounds way too soft, have you tried the vandoren 3 on your new mouthpiece?
As for the original question, there is no reason you can't use any mouthpiece you like as long as it tunes well. If you like the 4c better then there's no reason not to use it.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Bjazz
Date: 2016-09-26 23:56
Thanks Jdbassplayer
I did try the Vandoren strength 3.0 with it right away but it sounded really stuffy and was just really hard work same with the rico plasticover, strength 3.0 which I like to use for playing jazz, just no way with this mouthpiece, I can get up to the altissimo first E using the Juno 2.5 but not easily, but the tone is so much better with this strength and type of reed.
I guess I'll have to keep testing and maybe I will stay with the Yamaha 4c in the end, thanks for your opinion on that. and David Blumberg, I had the 5RV already the sales person just gave me what she thought was the best reed for me with it.
cheers guys,
cliff
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Author: TheOtherJon
Date: 2016-09-27 01:31
I just upgraded to a (used) Yamaha 450N which came with a 5RV Lyre mouthpiece. Prior to that I have been using a 4C mp exclusively (it's what I learned on, and is the only one I've used). I also found it a little more difficult to get to sound well and switched right back to my 4C. Granted, this is day one with the new horn and mp and maybe it just takes some getting used to?
Sorry I don't have any constructive advice, just thought I'd chime in with a 'me too'. I'd be curious to hear any updates if you end up deciding you like the 5RV better. I will continue to try it, myself.
*I'm using Rico Royal 2.5 reeds, btw
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Author: Bjazz
Date: 2016-09-27 01:49
Thanks TheOtherJon,
It helps to hear that you have more or less exactly the same set up as me and the same issues. I'll alternate between the two for a while and see if I can get a more improved play out of the 5RV or even up the reed strength to a 3.0.
I'll let you know in a while how I think it's going,
cheers,
cliff
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-09-27 03:07
It might take some time to get used to a new mouthpiece, but if you want to use your old one that's ok. It will help to have a new reed broken in on the new mouthpiece and to never played on the old mouthpiece. Reeds "get used to" the mouthpiece they are played on.
Make sure you are using steady air, plenty of support, and aren't tensing up (especially in your jaw or throat) when you cross the break. Make sure you are sealing all the finger holes, but aren't "slamming" any of your fingers down.
If you are having a problem crossing the break it could be the horn. It could be a great horn, but it might need a little adjustment. Even if it's easier on your old mouthpiece, it could still be the horn. It might be more obvious with the new mouthpiece for some reason. There are a few things that could be the problem.
1. You might be bumping one of the other keys accidentally, causing it to open very slightly. This can happen when playing a horn you are not used to.
2. The "bridge" may be out of adjustment. When you cross the break the left hand Eb/Bb pad (just below your left index finger) sometimes leaks. It is supposed to be closed by your right hand index finger (or any of the right hand ring keys). If it leaks even a little it is hard to cross the break. Try turning the bottom joint counter-clockwise ("up"), so that the top and bottom bridge will then be "off" by about a millimeter. That will make sure the Eb/Bb will close. If it fixes the problem the pad wasn't closing completely. Take it to a shop.
3. The "crows foot" may be out of adjustment. The pads for the RH pinky keys may not be closing at the same time, or there may be a pad leak. Take it to a shop.
4. There may be another leak somewhere.
If you just got bought it from the shop they might fix it free. Ask them if one of the technicians can check it out while you wait.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Bjazz
Date: 2016-09-27 03:33
Thanks Matthew for your detailed answer. I think you might be right about the reeds having a memory, and the ones that were difficult to play on the 5RV were being used on my 4C.
So I might try breaking in some strength 3.0s on the 5RV and see if that helps.
I noticed the difficult 'b' key in the shop whilst play testing the Buffet and I told the sales person who is an experienced clarinet player. She played over the note in various ways and it sounded absolutely fine, she assured me there were no leaks and I think I agree from what I heard.
Given that, I guess it most likely is my fault in some way, I'll just have to find out how.
Thanks again,
cliff
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-09-27 06:00
Well I have issues with Buffets. Often the new horns leak. Actually they all leak. So are you buying a new Buffet or a used one and what model? Have the store send it out to have it checked by a tech, unless the store has a tech to fix the leaking pads.
If the horn is sealed well try other mouthpieces. Some of the Yamaha mouthpieces are very open, maybe too open and you may have picked up a horrible Vandoren mouthpiece. Sometimes finding a good Vandoren mouthpiece is as hard or harder than finding a great reed, meaning that you may have to try about 10 mouthpieces, maybe more.
So with a leaking horn there is no way to find a good mouthpiece. Hope this helps.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: TheOtherJon
Date: 2016-09-27 06:53
Interesting note on the reed memory, Matt. Like Cliff, I also was using a reed broken in on my 4C (this is my first day with a 5RV Lyre, in case you missed it, and I'm having the same issue as the OP).
In my case, I did check the horn for leaks (also first day with new-to-me, but used, horn). It was supposedly just overhauled prior to sale. My leak test is to blow into the barrel with mp off, with the bell pressed down on a piece of closed-cell foam. Definitely no leaks on this puppy, so that wasn't an issue.
I will try to fish out a good, unused reed if I can find one or buy a new pack if not and will report back in.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-09-27 13:44
Actually you have to inhale, not blow out; exhale. Then you see how long the horn seals for. A decent horn should seal for maybe 15 seconds at least. With cork pads in the upper register my horns will seal for well over a minute. Regular pads set correctly will seal for 45 seconds. I had the honor of studying with the great Hans Moennig in Philly. He's throw out 5 to 10 pads before be got that perfect seal, but pads are much better now. He did you cork pads in the upper registers and on 2 keys in the lower register. If you are in the US I will look at it.
If you are uncertain send the horn to me and I will check it free of charge. I do not have much time to do a fantastic repair as I'm already way behind with symphony work and making mouthpieces and I'm designing a new mold.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-09-27 20:42)
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Author: Bjazz
Date: 2016-09-27 19:07
Thanks Bobbernado,
The clarinet is a Buffet B12 and it was brand new, store bought, and play tested for leaks and tone and tuning in front of me by the sales person who is a clarinettist. She passed it as sound and I trust that she is right. Also she played over the middle 'b' for me to test any issues with it and she sounded fine playing it and reported no issues. Even though I have issues with that note.
As for the mouthpiece, I can't say, but with a 2.5 Vandoren Juno reed it sounds very good and clean. So I guess it must be a sound mouthpiece or that would not be the case, maybe?
I will keep experimenting and see what happens. Thanks for your input.
cheers,
cliff
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-09-27 19:20
What will help in slurring from throat tones to lower clarion is to cover some or all of the right hand holes and pinky keys when you play the throat tone.
I'm not familiar with any of the reeds or mouthpieces you mention, so I have no suggestions there.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-09-27 19:43
Bjazz wrote:
> It is really hard getting to grips with it and particularly
> getting the middle long 'b' above throat 'a' to speak without a
> lot of difficulty especially when slurring up from throat 'a'
> and when starting on the note 'b'.
>
A great many "over the break" problems happen because either (1) your hands become tense and grab too tightly, pulling fingers partially off of holes that need to be covered or (2) your embouchure tenses up and presses on the reed either out of anxiety or to keep the clarinet from moving.
The mouthpiece can influence this only to the extent that something about its resistance is making you work too hard (try a softer reed) or is allowing the reed to close too easily (try a harder reed).
A test that could indicate whether your embouchure is moving or your fingers aren't staying on the holes might be to have a skilled player (the woman at the store?) do the fingering while you do the blowing and reed control. Turn the mouthpiece around. You hold onto the barrel to steady it while the other player fingers the keys (which are now facing you). As you do this together, you won't know when the other player is going to move from one note to the other, so you won't be able to react to it by tensing anything. If all goes smoothly, the the instrument and mouthpiece are probably not causing the problem. It's something you're doing when you're working the whole clarinet. Something - in your hands or your embouchure - is moving to cause the problem. If the connection is not smooth, maybe it's a mechanical problem after all.
Karl
Karl
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Author: Bjazz
Date: 2016-09-28 01:59
Thanks karl,
That's a lot to consider, but I will,
Thanks very much,
cliff
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-09-28 11:39
Bjazz wrote:
> So my question is, why should a player need to upgrade from the Yamaha
> mouthpiece in any case? is it really an improvement or is there a more
> technical reason why it should be done in terms of improving playing
> standards?
I don't see any reason to change mouthpieces now. There is really nothing wrong with a Yamaha 4C. I would return the 5RV (if possible) and play along with the Yamaha. Later, after developing your embouchure and technique you might want to "upgrade". Not for a "better" mouthpiece, but for a "different" mouthpiece that may better suit your artistic needs by then.
However, your teacher may have a different opinion...
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Author: Bjazz
Date: 2016-09-28 21:27
Thanks Jeroen,
That's very interesting, I cannot return the 5RV as I got it online a while ago at 50% discounted price, I think a customer return, but it does work perfectly and is sound.
I'll hang on to it and maybe play it later to see what its characteristics are when played with more experience. I'm using a Hite Premier Mouthpiece and the Yamaha 4C so I think I'll stick with those for now as they sound great.
Thanks for your input I appreciate it.
cliff
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-09-29 06:50
Try and stick with the 5RV for a while, give it a good trial ... unless it is damaged or really defective in some way.
I gave away my Yamaha 4C when I purchased a YCL-250, years ago and just purchased a 650 and gave away the "Custom" version of the same MP. In the next few weeks, when I find an SEV, it's MP will depart from my case, as well. I have a friend that actually really LIKES these, so I have kept him supplied!
The obligatory MPs provided with the Yamaha clarinets, are IMHO, not the best, not terrible, but rough sounding with an edge. They DO play LOUD, though! Marching band use?
You will find the 5RV having a more compact sound and not as free blowing, but once you match a reed and get accustomed to the MP, it should reward you with better sound and response.
If you are not adjusting/balancing reeds, learn to do so right away. I will make your playing experience more enjoyable.
Tom
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-09-30 15:29
I think the 5RV is a much better mouthpiece. But it is also a more closed mouthpiece. (if that is the term?)
That isn't a bad thing.. it is just different. Theoretically that gives it a more classical sound, and maybe better intonation.. well at least, less pitch bend than with a more open mouthpiece.
I found he 5RV was given me chest pain (seriously!) and I was using the recommended reed strength. (i had been using a B45)
Once i went for a softer reed, (2.5 rico royal) i found it played beautifully. I know some people say that is too soft. But I'm not sure what too soft means. I can play beautifully in all registers with that set up. But then.. I can also put on a 3.5 vandoren and play beautifully too these days (i couldn't initially).
I would stick with the vandoren. The Yamaha is a student mouthpiece, and i would say not even in the class of vandoren. And you may have preferred a different facing for your vandoren mouthpiece, but since you have it, just use a lighter reed for the time being. As a side note, i noticed that learning trumpet really really strengthened my clarinet embouchure.. except at first the trumpet playing exhausted my mouth so much, there was no strength left to practise clarinet!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-10-01 02:00
In a sense, you've actually started with the wrong question. And as a result you've gotten a lot of votes for the 4C and a lot for the 5RV. And as an immediate, practical matter, you need to play on the mouthpiece that gives you the most satisfactory result - that's your judgment to make.
But the more general question is, is a Vandoren mouthpiece generically an upgrade in quality from a 4C? There are a lot of players, including some well-reputed pros, who perform on Vandoren mouthpieces. But not necessarily on a 5RV. There are a number of Vandoren mouthpieces on the market and there are players using everything from the no-longer-available M14 through the B4x facings, with both "traditional" shaped beaks and the Profile 88 ones and with both "Traditional" internal configurations and Series 13.
I don't think any experienced clarinetist, or at least not many, would say there isn't *some* Vandoren mouthpiece that would give you better results than your 4C. But maybe not the 5RV that you have.
I've had students try M13, M13 Lyre and M15 Vandorens and love one while hating the other two. And they're very similar to each other. If you want to see what Vandoren (or D'Addario or Fobes, Backun or Behn intermediate mouthpieces) offer, you'd have to be motivated to try some of them and willing to spend the money to buy one.
So, if you don't really like the 5RV (even though it's *supposed* to be an upgrade), it comes down, rather than to a comparison between 4C and 5RV, instead to a decision about whether the 4C makes you comfortable and gives you the results you want. If not, shop. Otherwise, you won't lose anything much by waiting until something comes up that you can't easily do with the 4C (back to your own judgment call).
Karl
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Author: Bjazz
Date: 2016-10-02 02:02
Thank you Tom and Karl,
I understand what you have both said and it does make a lot of sense, I guess I am asking a question with 'too big' an answer and it does come down to what I can do with what I have in front of me. Not about quality of it.
I guess I'll just have to build up a collection of mouthpieces as I go along and then I'll learn their differences as they apply to me personally, at my particular playing level.
Thanks for your help,
cliff
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Author: TheOtherJon
Date: 2016-10-03 01:43
Thank you so much for the info on the leak test! I performed the suction (inhale) method you suggested - I actually bought a bunch of various-sized rubber stoppers years ago to plug holes since the old Yamaha 250 I bought used smelled *EVIL*. Plugged it up and scrubbed with Sterisol and a bottle brush.
Anyway, I plugged up my new "overhauled" 450, closed off the remaining keys and performed this test - neither joint holds air for more than 2-3 seconds! Eesh.
Then I did the same test on the old 250 and both joints held air for well over 15 seconds. I'm a little disappointed since I payed a little more than the typical going rate for a used 450 with a complete overhaul (including wood oiling).
From what I recall when researching the 250 years ago, they use super-synthetic pads that don't lend terribly well to the tone, but they are very resilient and have great longevity. Then 'good' pads wear out a bit quicker. I think high-end pads are fish skin or some such?! No idea what's on this model.
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