 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2016-06-10 07:55
Greetings!
How many Vandorens of the same model do you have to try to find a good one? Do you have to go through 3 or more just to find a responsive mouthpiece or do you find the consistency to be too high to warrant that? Thanks!
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-06-10 15:35
Quinton--I'm not sure if your question is an expression of frustration, a reality check to see if you're being too selective--or not selective enough, or an attempt to quantify the consistency of Vandoren mouthpieces to other brands.
I do know that we not only each have different tolerances for inconsistency that are hard to quantify, but that players will sometimes trade off some consistency for a mouthpiece that, when the right reed comes along, is grand.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-06-10 16:42
Exiawolf wrote:
> How many Vandorens of the same model do you have to try to find
> a good one?
I'm assuming you mean how many of the same facing/model (e.g. M13).
If the first one is awful, go on to a different facing. They're variable, but not to the extent that one is terrible and the next is wonderful within the same facing. If you want to find the *best* you could try hundreds and never be sure there isn't a better one you still haven't tried.
If you like the first one, try one or two others and choose.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-06-10 19:08
Good question in terms of the "historical context."
Thirty years ago or more you'd have to have at least four in front of you (same everything) and of those there would be a clear winner.
In the last thirty or so years the scales have flipped in favor of them mostly being great. I had recently tried three in a row and could barely tell any difference. At some point about fifteen years ago, I had three (all the same) in front of me and one was a little off but the other two were great.
So consistency is WAY up these days (good for us).
If you are trying to find a different facing, or are just getting acquainted, then that is a different story. I'd recommend starting with a 5RV Lyre or M13 to get your feet wet if you are uninitiated.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2016-06-11 10:25
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I guess my problem is so: I have an M13 Lyre that plays pretty well (I guess coming from my non professional perspective), but I haven't used it in a long time (It's facing was touched up by a well known mouthpiece craftsmen). I used it regularly about a year ago until a switched to a B40 Lyre for awhile, which has given me a nice sweet and full tone that's worked really well for me. However the resistance of the mouthpiece is too high and Im struggling to get a clean fast staccato basically everywhere as well as having response problems in the altissimo. I've tried some varying mouthpieces (Made from Zinners) and have decided I should probably stick with Vandoren (They for the most part seem to work for me).
So back to the M13 Lyre, it obviously feels different after a years worth of improvement, but it has these strange indents on the VERY front part of the tip rail (No idea where thery came from or if they were there to begin with). I'll attach a few pictures. Playing on the mouthpiece I don't notice any immediate issues per say (chirps or anything) however it seems to be particularly fussy with reeds (I've been trying some Blue Box 3.5's on it). Some reeds respond pretty well, but a vast majority of them are fuzzy and stuffy. Assuming maybe it was due to the tip rail I ran to my music store and tried the M13 Lyre they had on hand (it was brand new and untouched). It had the same problem, with the same amount of stuffy reeds except now most of the responsive reeds sounded rather bright to my ears. So now I'm stuck. I don't know if the mouthpiece I have is defective and I don't know where to go from here.
Lastly about the "indents": They really seem to be on the very tip, barely if at all on the facing side of the tip rail.
Post Edited (2016-06-11 10:27)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-06-11 12:34
From the image I don't really see a problem with the tip. Looks like "teeth bumping" marks to me.
I'm wondering firstly what made you want to reface the M13 Lyre in the first place (some specific issue you were trying to resolve). Then it would be worth noting what experience you had with the mouthpiece post surgery. It is not enough to say that an expert refaced it. Did the refacing solve the "problem?" Did you like the results? Where you ultimately dissatisfied with it?
Then again switching to the B40 Lyre is a big change in facing. Did you change reed strength? What was satisfying about the B40 over the re-faced mouthpiece?
And lastly, in what period of time did all this happen? If it is just a few weeks, there is a good chance you are not allowing your embouchure to "settle in" to any one mouthpiece to figure out what works best in the long haul.
But to the point, chances are the mouthpiece you tried in the store was representative of the M13 Lyre you had pre-surgery.
But you can't re-adjudicate your decision. Your mouthpiece has been changed and it can never be what it was.
The last point is that you mention the timbre as a negative factor in your experience with the store mouthpiece. Your experience to this point should tell you that was a false impression caused by any number of factors (not the least of which is your embouchure not being "settled").
I would throw out here that the "SQUAWK TEST" (and that is just backing off rom where the reed and mouthpiece come together) is really important to do right now. You want to make sure you are using the same best spot from mouthpiece to mouthpiece, day to day.
And remember........slow and steady wins the race.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-06-11 16:19
For me, a purple box of 10 Vandorens usually produces 2 that are immediately playable and 2 that are too bad to be rescued.
The other 6 are more or less unbalanced, which I can correct.
First, I look at the butt to make sure it's symmetrical. If it's not, I sand it down until it is.
Second, I hold it up to the light, lightly mark the dark (hard) areas with a side of a soft pencil and scrape off the pencil marks, repeating until the reed is balanced. If this makes the reed too soft, I clip the tip, making sure the curve matches the mouthpiece precisely, particularly at the corners.
Of the remaining 6, I can usually make all of them into good practice reeds, and most of them into performance-quality reeds.
Ken Shaw
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-06-11 19:35
I think I have better context now Quinton.
You're having a "go of it" getting good performance, whether that be a reed, or mouthpiece (or even you) centered problem.
I *guess* the mouthpiece defects are NOT at play here.
What experience do you have at adjusting reeds? The answer to that question may help dictate advice I have for you going forward.
Shy away from the B40 for now, IMHO--my concerns being, among others, over the very articulation issues you sight...and did you stay at the same reed strength when you made this switch?---I hope not. I hope you lightened up a bit. That B40's get a bigger tip opening, as I suspect you appreciate.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-06-11 21:43
Since VD has started outsourcing their blanks and not tried to machine them, the consistency is better. I select MPs for even rails, especially the tip rail and look to see if any gouges, deep scratches and asymmetries are in the interior.
I rarely play a MP in the store ... buy one or two that meet my inspection criteria and live with them for a few weeks before making a decision to use them or put them in shoe box.
With Vandoren, nowadays, there are some variances in playing, but it is rare to find a bad one ... If you inspect them before playing, you are likely to get a good one. You will adjust to the individual characteristics over time, in your reed selection, voicing and embouchure.
Give the 5RV-lyre or a M13 a shot ... try a Legere #3.0 to 3.25 Classic or a 2.75 to 3.0 Signature for a no fuss starting point with an easy response. Relax and enjoy.
Tom
Post Edited (2016-06-11 21:52)
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2016-06-11 23:42
To ease some worry, yes I came down in strength on the B40 Lyre to a V12 3. It served me well and got me 2nd in my state (Not saying much, but it definitely has WORKED for me), but the articulation problem has driven me nuts.
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Author: RefacerMan
Date: 2016-06-11 23:51
Exia,
Most Vandoren mouthpieces play noticeably more responsively and have better, easier articulation once someone who knows what they are doing refaces them and works the upper baffle and the tip rail. The critical part is really the upper baffle area right under the tip. When that is shaped correctly Vandoren mouthpieces really sing! Just refacing a mouthpiece doesn't usually get it done. It has to be "voiced" which means working the chamber and baffle until the mouthpiece plays its' best.
Post Edited (2016-06-11 23:53)
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2016-06-11 23:54
And to answer the question, I have little experience adjusting reeds WELL. I have apes try standar reed breaking procedure where I close the pores and play I slightly more everyday. But afte that I honestly do nothing. Everytime I've attempted to adjust my reeds with sandpaper or reed rush, they just get worse.
Also is it generally agreed I should just stick with my current M13 Lyre and that I do not need a new one?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-06-12 01:10
Generally I would say trying 3-4 will find a decent one. They do have a degree of variability.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-06-12 03:11
I think 80-90% of the same Vandoren model will play virtually the same. So do you feel lucky?
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-06-12 19:30
So, I am curious about what exactly is going on with the articulation.
There are two main issues: Speed and Definition.
Definition is pretty easy to solve. Tonguing tip of the tongue (and I mean the very tip of the tongue) to the tip of the reed (and I mean the very tip of the reed....you should feel the crest of the reed) allows you to place separation EXACTLY where you want it, and makes that separation as clear as possible. Of course if you tongue further down the reed, moving up is at least a week's worth of just getting used to the sensation and a further month to really get a sense of what is going on. As any new technique, approach slowly with diligent practice.
The other issue is speed. And there are some of us (me included) who just have slow tongues. The best solution for speed is to develop and use double tonguing techniques for more situations. It can be a life saver.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-06-13 13:43
Well, the B40Lyre is definitely more resistant than a 'regular' mouthpiece. You can try a few new ones and pick the one that gives you the best articulation. 2 or 3 mouthpieces would be sufficient to try. If none of them work better, you can change to softer reeds or switch to another type e.g. the B45Lyre. The B45Lyre has about the same sound as the B40Lyre but plays a lot easier.
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