 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-05-11 20:34
OK, I'm not the only one on this forum who has spent too much energy pursuing different- sometimes exotic or unusual- clarinets, accessories, and techniques. To the point of annoying some here. I think we all understand our primary attention has to be on time spent on music of appropriate difficulty and content to match our personal musical goals. But I also guess that all or nearly all of us have the experience of switching something, anything, and at least for a short time having a better playing experience. And that can lead us to do more of that. Equipment and methods are important, but we agree not overriding, right?
So, I have a basic and rather academic question for all you "serious" clarinetists. I prefer to hear from those who substantially support themselves financially with clarinet, or are at a similar level with those folks. Or- if you respond here- at least confess you're not. I'm not.
Any of you folks regularly play on one "basic" instrument (perhaps an identical backup), I'll arbitrarily say under $3000 though even that's a lot- whatever that might be? No closets full of random exotic other clarinets? Using a "basic" mouthpiece, nothing off the wall or exotic or overpriced? And no others that you ever play on? Without any exotic or overpriced barrels or bells or neckties? Using one type of reed that any of us could get easily? Using simple methods we'd all understand (for breakin, storage, prepping etc)? Using a basic ligature that would be no surprise or too $$$ for others? And you've done all this for years. And you know very well that you could perform equally well with 27 other kinds of clarinets or equipment, and you wouldn't even care if you had to, so long as you had 5 min to adjust before performance? And you don't use or do ANYTHING you consider to be off the beaten path?
What I am characterizing as "basic" could in fact be rather expensive (equipment) or difficult or tedious or time consuming (methods). But I have seen discussed here with great seriousness- many things I would say are not basic. I know it when I see it, and I bet you do, too. I am guilty as charged.
Have I ruled out all of you? If so- why doesn't "basic" work for you?
I am just curious. Forgive me.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-05-11 21:28)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-05-11 21:19
fskelley wrote:
>
> Have I ruled out all of you? If so- why?
>
You've confused me! I'm not sure, having gotten to the end of your post, what exactly you're asking.
Have I used the same clarinet for 50 years? Yes. Have I used the same mouthpiece for that long? No. And I do have a drawer full, but have not played on most of them for more than a few hours. I have played steadily on maybe three or four since the early 1970s. I've been playing on my current one for 3 or 4 years. I do try ligatures and change from time to time, but have never paid more than $25 or $30 for one. The only thing I've recently begun to use that some might consider "off the beaten path" is Steuer Exclusive reeds, but I think in recent years lots of players have left the Vandoren stable - there are today a lot of alternatives.
Does that answer your question in at least some way?
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-05-11 21:38
Hi Karl,
I probably wrote too much and made my question(s) unclear. Sorry. Passions ignite as some of us write, and can easily turn into rants. :-) Let me try again.
Do you (any of you) think your success depends on something that is not "basic" (a poor term I admit)? I take from your answer you are not really depending on anything unusual. Just being interested in variations is not a fault. But you'd be OK with your "50 years ago" setup, perhaps with some minor adjustments?
I really wonder if someone thinks they won an important position because of the material of their ligature vs their competition. Or because they sand the backs of their reeds flat and the others don't. If so, that's important for all of us to know.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-05-11 21:50
And lest I get set upon again, let me say this post is just because I wonder how others think about equipment and what I call unusual methods. For now I am content with my own choices and am confident I have a reasonable path for getting from where I am to where I am trying to get. I will update older threads of mine when I think I have solid conclusions to contribute on those subjects (reeds ligatures ad nauseam).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-05-11 21:53
Confusing question to me as well.
Sounds like you're asking: "Hey, any of you pros out there playing in philharmonic orchestras using the Bundy plastic horn you learned on in jr. high school?"
I'm being facetious, but it does kind of sound like that's the essence of your question. No?
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-05-11 22:15
tucker- No- perhaps it started that way, I edited a couple of times and hope I got closer to what I intended. But I just tried to rephrase your version of the question and couldn't. Go figure.
I could make a list of the things I personally think are basic (B) and which are not basic (NB), would certainly offend the proponents of the NB's. I think most of us would agree on most of the B vs NB's.
The preaching on the value of any NB item can easily confuse those without the experience or good sense to know they can safely (and probably should) be ignored by almost everybody. It's a trap, not just for the item itself, but on a whole approach to playing. I've been chastised, rightly so, for thinking too much about NB's vs real music study.
Even a B item (let's use reed breakin as an example) can become NB if you think some minor variant is critical to success, which it almost certainly is not. We need to worry about such items, but only in a qualitative sense, understanding that there is a wide variety of good and reasonable choices.
Any pros out there rely on something you admit is an NB? It's critical to your success?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-05-11 23:39
I would like to think on many levels I am just the guy to ask. I have wandered off the beaten path for many years (you know: arrogance, individuality, elitism) and found myself migrating back to simple for quite a number of years in a row now (though I go through regular epiphanies).
I would say that you find a good clarinet, decent mouthpiece, nice matching reed and reasonable ligature and that's all you need.
Example (for those who need a template)
Buffet R13 (nickel keys)
Vandoren M13 (non Lyre)
Vandoren Standard reeds (or V21......they are really good)
Rovner Light Ligature
Any professional would be unstoppable with that combination.
What is most important is musicianship and learning more ways to be musical (both on an intellectual level and emotional level).
Crappy equipment will get in your way; fancy equipment (or let's just say really esoteric and expensive) is not at all necessary. Super expensive gear may help on some level or it may not.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-05-12 00:02
Paul- nice answer, thanks.
"Any professional would be unstoppable with that combination."...
Suppose there was a pro really really depending on their XYZABC lithium-37 ligature and titanium reinforced balsa wood barrel for the best sound. And they were unable to play indistinguishably as well on your hypothetical standard setup- even given the opportunity to optimize reed strength and work with it a while. Wouldn't that mean they have a technique problem- that it SHOULDN'T matter even if they have a personal preference? (If it DOESN'T mean that, we should all be buying those ligatures and barrels.)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-05-12 00:20)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-05-12 01:42
Stan,
You'll get different answers from different people. Sometimes you'll get different answers from the same person depending on the audience they're addressing. For instance, most performers will downplay gear if they're talking to students (as they should) to disabuse them of "Holy Grail" syndrome - seeking gear to do the work for them or to dissuade them from the misguided belief that if they use performer X's gear, they'll sound like performer X.
Mike Lowenstein's Youtube demo of ligatures - actual and ersatz - makes a good point of this (although he sounds rather dramatically different on the Popa). But on his personal website, he stresses the importance of the mouthpiece/ligature/reed synergy necessary to craft the kind of sound you want.
For me, different gear doesn't make me sound better, it just makes me sound different. If the difference is in the direction I want my sound and comfort in playing to go, I use it. On bass, I sound way different with my B50 than I do with my Garrett MO. The same goes when playing a Buffet Prestige instead of my Selmer 37. Not better, just different.
And to address your latest question, I don't think any pro is necessarily dependent on a particular accessory-type gizmo. They'll sound great, regardless. But I think most pros definitely have preferences regarding "feel" and comfort when it comes to mouthpieces and reeds and horns. Will they sound fantastic on a typical American orchestral player set-up? Absolutely. Will they sound they way they want and feel comfortable playing? Maybe, maybe not.
Chris
Post Edited (2016-05-12 01:46)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-05-12 02:10
CEC wrote:
> Stan,
>
.....
> But I think most pros
> definitely have preferences regarding "feel" and comfort when
> it comes to mouthpieces and reeds and horns. Will they sound
> fantastic on a typical American orchestral player set-up?
> Absolutely. Will they sound they way they want and feel
> comfortable playing? Maybe, maybe not.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Post Edited (2016-05-12 01:46)
And non pros as well. I've come to realize that it doesn't matter what mouthpiece I use. I can play it. I can make a reed match it. It doesn't matter what clarinet I have. I can get what I consider to be a "good sound" in it. The difference is in how COMFORTABLE am I playing it? How much do I have to work to achieve the response I want? So I gravitate towards equipment (whatever that may be) that makes we work as little as necessary to still achieve the sound I want.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-05-12 02:44
Thanks all of you for trying to answer this- I know it isn't as simple a question as I set it up here.
I can't blame anyone at any level for seeking what feels or sounds better. If there are pros who keep everything completely simple and never waver, perhaps they're not constantly watching this forum, LOL. Nor do I necessarily think that's a better approach, it's just different.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-05-12 03:18
Here's where I start to fudge my answer.
Of course if someone tries the XYZ ABC Lithium 37 Ligature and likes the "feel/sound" better (by a degree that matters to him/her), then that person will use the XYZ ABC Lithium 37 until it breaks and they realize that refinancing their house again is not worth it.
It really is a perception thing. If you have that elusive combo going for you, you feel better, and even play better because you feel better (usually - that is if you believe that you play crappy when you're sick or tired or both).
I've always felt in an emergency, as long as I have at least one broken in reed, I could play any decent set-up and get through a gig (though everyone needs some consistency to do their best).
But a part of why "we top pros" prefer the titanium reinforced balsa wood barrel is much like the answer to a crass joke (that I will clean up slightly):
Why do dogs lick themselves?
Because they can.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-05-12 04:07
Years ago I had a friend who was a professional clarinettist. He played a lovely pair of early Buffets and used used to rhapsodize about his mouthpieces, which had apparently been specially made for him in a magic cave in a haunted forest by a goblin blacksmith from fairy dust and unobtainium alloy, at least it seemed so the way he talked about them.
His clarinets went missing at a regional airport in Italy, and he was truly devastated. His friends worried that this might actually be a career-ending event, such was his distress. A few months later I visited him and found him enthusiastically practicing on his new pair of R13's, complete with M13 mouthpieces. He seemed to have made the transition quite seamlessly once he had got his head around the fact that there actually was other equipment that might possibly work for him if only he'd let it. He continued to play for many years. I wonder if whoever ended up with his magic mouthpiece found it as good.
Tony F.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-05-12 04:24
I play professionally. I do not earn, nor could I likely earn a living solely performing. I'd play for free, just for the fun of it.
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"If advanced players don’t use basic gear why is that the case."
Because they want to maximum their level of play and feel certain gear (that those less advanced than them likely won’t be able to glean similar results with, and even players at their level may have different results with) helps them with that.
Is this a trick question or have I missed something?
"But you'd be OK with your "50 years ago" setup, perhaps with some minor adjustments?"
Many professionals covet golden era R13’s, original Chedeville/Lenandais mouthpieces and instead of making their own reeds (as was more common when this gear was introduced) modify store bought ones (minor adjustment.)
"I really wonder if someone thinks they won an important position because of the material of their ligature vs their competition."
If they do, they might be fooling themselves. If they’re not, it likely doesn’t apply to you at your self-admitted level anyway. If ligature makers could site uniform appreciation by listeners of better sound in players versus an alternative, they’d publish that information they’ve yet to provide. I don’t think top teachers of the next generation of symphony players (e.g. Gilad/Hawley) are pushing ligatures.
"I wonder how others think about equipment and what I call unusual methods."
Feel free to have your thoughts and feelings. I suggest though that the most useful use of your time is you wonder and imitate how the best teachers and players think about equipment, and that is that it’s important, but plays a back seat to quality practice.
You may need to better define "unusual methods." But even without specifics, unusual methods are by definition approaches that don’t work, or haven’t yet been peer review proven to work for the masses—or else they wouldn’t be unusual. Logic suggests best practices will work best on the most people and accordingly, that is the road to take.
I get it. You're just curious about something you don't plan to attempt (at least I don't think). I'm curious to know why?
"Or because they sand the backs of their reeds flat and the others don't. If so, that's important for all of us to know."
If someone, a single person—even a small minority swear by sanding the backs of their reeds, which I doubt, why is such aberrant behavior important for us to know? Because they’re on to something?
If, for example, sanding the back of their reeds, as you sight, or some other technique others have already tried and achieved less than “make or break success” with is helping one person, why is that important for us to know?
Why alternatively is it more important, with limited time, than say, all the Rose Studies?
"I will update older threads of mine when I think I have solid conclusions to contribute on those subjects (reeds ligatures ad nauseam)."
Maybe you’ll find something others concur with (a reasonable definition of your solid conclusions I think) as it applies to synthetic reeds. As for cane, its variable, and as such the idea of you finding some new uniform method of approaching them, that others peer review and concur shows utility is so slim, that those seeking your maximum advancement would suggest the time better spent on study. But of course it’s your time to privately explore.
But wouldn’t your time be better spent on a method of advancement repeatedly shown to improve play: practice--a guaranteed way to make all your reeds play better for you?
"Suppose there was a pro really really depending on their XYZABC lithium-37 ligature and titanium reinforced balsa wood barrel for the best sound. And they were unable to play indistinguishably as well on your hypothetical standard setup- even given the opportunity to optimize reed strength and work with it a while. Wouldn't that mean they have a technique problem.."
It would not only depend upon the degree of difference in play between the pro’s specific setup and the excellent but more standard one Paul exampled, but how you define technique problem. If some pro rocks out on a setup he depends upon I’d think twice before calling that a technique problem, even if he played poor on Paul's setup, let alone if the pro merely played well on Paul's.
.
"- that it SHOULDN'T matter even if they have a personal preference?"
Whether it’s the golfer or the clarinet player, if they have a personal preference then it does by definition matter to them, and doesn't make them lessor to any player---except maybe the one that can meet or surpass their technique on multiple setups (purely academic.)
It’s as if your saying, to cut through the muck, that if they DIDN’T have a technique problem Paul’s gear list should be just as good as the pro’s choice.
Pros can prefer gear and fail to have technique issues.
"(If it DOESN'T mean that, we should all be buying those ligatures and barrels.)"
If the player plays best on their setup and they don’t have technique issues then all that says is that particular setup works best for them. Why would we all be buying those ligatures and barrels when our experiences might be different not only because we play differently, but because we may be at a lower level of play than the pro and as result have inferior results?
Perhaps I miss the point, because I feel like I've stated obvious fact you, or most decent players know.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-05-12 04:24
I guess a related question for those of you who teach at an advanced level is- after your student has obtained exactly the gear you think they should have (and I'd bet $$ some of you demand such conformance)- and you play on student's said gear that is missing your own pet accessories (you didn't demand they buy them also, did you?)... does it make you so happy you DO have those extras? or do you think, hey this is just as good as mine?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-05-12 04:26
For one pro who keeps it simple...
I took lessons (monthly) for a year with Mr. Joseph Eller who teaches at USC (South Carolina). Great clarinetist, great guy as far as I know.
When I met him, he played exclusively Vandoren M15 mouthpieces. He wasn't (if I remember correctly) a vandoren artist. But when I asked his reasoning, he said something to the effect of, "It plays well, and it's only a hundred bucks. And if anything ever happens to it, I can find a local music store and I guarantee they will have it in stock, and it'll only cost me a hundred bucks."
He performed on it, and has recordings and made his living on it.
He is NOW a D'Addario artist and plays a d'addario (formerly rico reserve) mouthpiece. And I bet if you ask him why he plays that mouthpiece, it'll be something to the effect of 'it plays well, and it's only a hundred bucks, and if anything happens to it, ......' well, you get the point.
Paul aviles mentioned above the Vandoren M13 (non-lyre). I'd say pretty much any of the M-series vandoren mouthpieces are great, cheap, and won't hold you back. I'm kinda hankerin' to get an M15 again. It played well, was only a hundred bucks, and......
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-05-12 05:09
My wife will do almost anything but try out new equipment. One day a friend asked her to try out a mouthpiece. She liked it and that is what she has played for the last 12 years or so. She played the same clarinet she had from conservatory days till I brought her a used clarinet I just fixed up so she could "check it out". Now that is her clarinet. So she picked her mouthpiece from a sampling of one and she picked her clarinet from a sampling of one.
Steve Ocone
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-05-12 05:12
The top teachers who are in such demand that they could make students conform, and still have students, are, from what I've seen, much more likely to care how you sound, not your gear. They care how you are interpreting the literature, your art, your performance, less so the gear that makes that art--unless they feel that gear is getting in your way.
If your are with the advanced teacher you describe then you are an advanced player and you've probably already worked this out with yourself and previous teachers. You probably didn't start with the advanced teacher you sight.
Most advanced teachers I've had played my horn only to rule out something being a repair issue or me. (Teachers who pick out gear for their students tend to use their accessories when doing so.)
But still, lets pursue your hypothetical--my answer would be that I can't expect that you'd get consistent answers, do you? Still better, if you got consistent answers, is the test really fair? The teacher worked out accessories they like on their instrument(s). Their mileage might vary on other instruments, even those they suggest or pick out for students, not to mention the bias for self righteousness that might cloud true results. And they might, or might not think their experiences will transfer to the student or their instrument. It's so specific I don't think universal answers or reasons exist here.
Yet still further, if the advanced teacher really believed in the gear, wouldn't they suggest it? Wouldn't the ones that suggested the exact instrument, but not accessories by definition not be as committed to those accessories?
I don't know any advanced teachers who say "this ligature," this brand reed, this mouthpiece, especially if the student is doing well. I have been told sometimes what not to use, which the advanced student often already knows/has figured out.
I think the question you ask is if some teachers purchased gear they later found out wasn't as necessary as they thought, or was? Sure. Was this your question--I ask because this answer seems well known and the question rhetorical.
Please contemplate and ask as you see fit. I just know that when I get into these mindsets its time for me to open up the metronome and etude studies book.
..as I do now.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-05-12 05:57
One of my several great teachers, when asked about brands of items he used would answer "Buick." Other times he would claim "It's an imported Bastardi."
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-05-12 07:12
The only recommendations I make on gear is when I think the equipment may be holding the student back. Of course it is hard to know if that assessment is even fair (everyone finds their own solutions eventually). I had a student that plodded along with little improvement playing a substandard mouthpiece. I made a subtle suggestion to change but to know avail (I don't insist). Not long after there was a hideous marching band incident that made it necessary to move to another mouthpiece. I got my wish, and yet even with some time to hear the results, alas it made no appreciable difference.
In another instance, my "best student ever" got the most amazing sounds out of some intermediate old Leblanc (not even in the at the best level of repair) and an M15 mouthpiece. I swear I spent more time actually being envious of that student's sound!!!! Now, I could get a good sound out of the student's horn as well, but the point is that even though the student could easily have "geared up," the results probably would not have (and I don't see how) appreciably better. The student wound up studying some medical thing, giving up music and never upgraded the horn. I was devastated.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-05-12 07:35
You will find many such professionals. I play R13s with a stock X5 and D'Addario reeds. I've always been open to the possibility of better clarinets, but so far none of the competitors (or Buffet's own super duper models) have proven to be functionally superior. Over the years I've spent a LOT of money on and done a lot of trading in vintage mouthpieces, and I've got some really good ones. And I used to make my own reeds. But I think there is a point in the clarinet system where any improvement in one area is paid for with degradation in another. Especially if you try to compensate for fundamental problems with equipment, you wind up with the equipment telling you what to do rather than the other way around. I understand the magic mouthpiece thing; I've lived it. You want an edge, you want an advantage, and if seems like some mouthpieces are so much better than others, maybe there's one out there that will put you over the top. But I won my first full time job on a Gennusa, and my current job on a Rico.
Modern companies are making really good stuff. If you exercise due diligence, equipment will not hold you back. Professional success will depend on things you can't buy. Passion, creativity, intelligence, perseverance, resilience.
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