 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-04-16 05:53
Those of you who routinely wet reeds before play in a cup of water as opposed to your mouth... how long? tightly monitored time or not? do you think it matters? (why or why not) how deep?
Then- much fewer I'm guessing have a "post-play" rinse or soak habit, in water or (in my case) peroxide half strength. How long? do you think it matters? Anybody quit doing this "for cause"?
I'd like to think none of this makes a whit of difference to anything, but I do want to make sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot. (My numbers for some time have been- 30 sec to 1 min presoak maybe 1/3 depth, then blot and squeeze before play --- same time for post-soak in half H2O2, blot before drying). I could experiment with this also, but I'd really rather not- too many variables already.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-04-16 05:54)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-16 06:17
When I was using cane (boy that feels good to say), I wouldn't really monitor how long a reed soaked before playing (after broken in). Of course it makes sense to throw it in a bottle of water before putting the horn together, and once that's done, I'd just slap the reed on the mouthpiece (didn't really matter if I took a call in between or spoke to a colleague for 15 minutes - all the same thing). For me, once the reed is broken in, you just need to get it "up to speed" and it doesn't seem to do any harm (or good) to extend the pre-play soak for an extended period.
After play, I pop in back in my mouth to even out the moisture on the reed before throwing it the reed case. Again, no set time or anything like that, just address the reed first, then work on putting everything else away before placing the reed in its case.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-04-16 06:40
Water is a necessary evil. It makes broken in reeds (your subject focus) more pliable (read: breaks them down) by breaking down polymer chains in the cane that are mostly restored when the reed dries. If I happen to be near water I fill a cup to drink out and happen to use it to wet the business end of the reed before and after play.
If I'm at a gig I put the reed in my mouth.
Other people do other things. You know there is no uniformity to this, just basic rules, like, "don't ram the reed into a wall before playing it."
This minutiae doesn't matter to even the most advanced of players.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAOVSbjcK_w
"I'd like to think none of this makes a whit of difference to anything."
It doesn't. Ergo, pursuing it wastes time from play, which does make a difference. If it did, why are you more meticulous about reeds than top players are?
I really don't understand, much though I am trying. If someone responds that they soak in half water half Hydrogen Peroxide for 15 seconds before and 12.2 seconds after--the whole reed--something there isn't going to be consensus on, is that what your going to do?
Or are you going to wait for consensus--which will never happen.
If there was a best way do to this, don't you think consensus would have been approached by now?
"but I do want to make sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot."
Don't worry whether you are shooting yourself in the foot (read: engaging in behavior counter to your mission to improve as a player). You are. You're fixated on one area of clarinet play that wouldn't be warranted even if doing it actually correlated better with improved play, like scales and arpeggios.
Take any decent reed. Put it in your mouth. Put in on your mouthpiece. Open an etude book and play. I promise you--it will be the best thing for your advancement.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-04-16 06:45
Stan, first off, you will know if you've wet the reed too long or not long enough - it won't play its best. There's a lot of leeway before you water-log a reed, and you can see it as an appearance of darkness from the tip area down into the heartwood. If you don't wet a reed long enough, an older reed will have a wavy tip and, older or new, it won't vibrate well - it'll make hissing or static noise, maybe squeak, or just not respond cleanly.
For myself, I wet a brand new reed for a few seconds - dip it into the water, then massage the tip to push more of the water into the wood, and play on it for a minute - maybe a few staves. This is the beginning for me of the process of breaking in a reed.
As the reed ages, I soak it in the water for a longer time. Most of the time I take it out of the water after half a minute or so and just lay it flat side up on a piece of glass (because it's wet) until I'm ready to play on it. The test is not how long it has been soaking but whether or not the tip is straight and the reed is ready to play. You can always hurry the process along by massaging the reed to press the water in and any waviness out, but the tip, one way or the other, needs to be straight across.
I use a plastic 35mm film can filled about 2/3 of the way up, so the reeds go in up to the bark or maybe a little more.
So, the bottom line is that I have no real system, certainly not one based on a timer. The older the reed, the more wetting time it may need. I don't post-soak my reeds in anything. I've never been convinced it provides any benefit and I'm not sure that peroxide doesn't damage the cane fibers in some way.
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-04-16 07:23
I always drop cane reeds into a cup or saucer of water. They're ready to play when the corrugated shape of the tip flattens out -- about 5 minutes.
As Karl says, when the area in front of the heart and above the tip gets waterlogged and turns dark, it's time to put that reed away and switch to another. By that time, anyway, the reed has stopped responding.
Ken Shaw
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-04-16 07:25
Thanks Paul and Karl for confirming my initial thought that it is not a critical matter as long as one is reasonable (and as Dave points out- not an issue most busy players apparently spend any energy on). Also Karl thanks for some guidelines on knowing if not enough or too much water. Because I guess once in a great while it does matter.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-04-16 07:37
Also thanks Ken for your info- 5 min presoak is longer than I have heard, good to know there is a wide range of acceptable answers, depending on the particulars. And I will pay attention to the changes in color of the "area in front of the heart and above the tip".
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-04-16 17:24
As a reed Master I have mixed feelings here. Often regardless what you do to a reed it simply is trash. It won't work. EVER. Lots of companies. probably all of them except a few like Steuer are getting reeds from other countries, not just France. So the cane simple sucks and doesn't last.
One company for sure uses pesticides. Rico. De'Addario. A lot of their cane comes from Argentina. There is no wind to make the cane strong, the soil sucks, so the cane is very weak.
The Steuer reeds are grown is a special place called the Var region of France and it's like a very small sub ecosystem only found in southern France. It is pesticide free. Everyday the cane polls gets wind from the ocean and the needed moisture, plus they rest the cane for 4 years. Rico will rest the cane for maybe 1 1/2 years so it never matures. The polls sway and get strong, like weight lifting!
Here's the problem. It's simple poor cane from other companies. You can look at the vibers using a powerful glass and see how the fibers and cell walls are compared to Vandoren and Rico. Plus there are more larger fibers and much thicker, translates to strength - weight lifting from the sea air.
Are you tire of paying $25 to $35 for a box of reeds and finding 2 great reeds that last 2 weeks and maybe 1 or 2 reeds that may last a week well this is why. Poor cane and poor growing practices. It's really that simple. Email me if you wish. I worked at Rico for 15 years. I also know Bernard Vandoren. A very nice man. I like Vandoren! Great people! They just can't get enough quality cane.
So whatever you do to break in a reed, if it is weak, the fibers are under developed throw them out or sent them back to Rico. Last I heard Rico will give you a new box of reeds, but they may be stinky too! Hope I've helped.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-04-16 23:27
Every bit of cane is different so no absolute numeric answer but my general experience is that newer reeds tend to need longer 1-3 minutes but as they age this reduces to say 30-60 sec,
A reed by it's response tells you within a few minutes of playing if it needs a little extra soaking.
I use a small liquor glass at home but carry a film cannister on gigs and never soak more than 3/4 way up the vamp.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-04-19 06:15
I have an article on my web page that deals with that. I just soak the vamp portion of my reed for a few seconds. I explain it on my page if you're interested. That way I don't have to write it all out here.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-04-19 07:50
Hi Ed- thanks for the detailed instructions.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-04-19 16:41)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-06-04 00:28
A quick update. Yes this topic was a bit over the top. Clearly most players give it little thought, so probably it makes little difference most of the time.
But at least some of the responses indicated it's possible to overwet, and that's bad especially for the high end. So I've backed off a bit, to the point I sometimes have to go back and wet a bit longer. And I think it's better, good results more of the time and longer play before it degrades.
I should probably report separately what has really been beneficial of late- which is to get way more aggressive about only playing on the best reeds I have available, and setting aside the marginal ones.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-06-04 04:36
Use body temperature tap water and dip reed in for 5 seconds, wetting just the vibrating part (from tip to about where the MP window stops. Using tap water instead of saliva for the initial wetting will prolong the life of the reed ... IMHO.
Getting the part of the reed that lays on the MP table will encourage warping and not laying flat.
Tom
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-06-04 07:00
"Yes this topic was a bit over the top."
No, respectfully Stan I think it was more. Trying to find optimal wetting times, when we all have different tastes, with the granularity of seconds (of time) would be a bit much if cane reeds were a consistent product; and of course they aren't.
I've been trying to find a clarinet analogy, without insult, that portrays my sentiments. The best I've been able to come up with is akin to buying a new barrel for your clarinet, and then testing the best position it plays in, also in second intervals: even if the seconds I refer to here are angular ones, while the aforementioned ones are units of time. If I recall, 360 degrees are in the complete revolution, and each degree contains 3600 seconds (i.e. 1,296,000 positions of arc to test). Okay--maybe it's minutes of arc granularity to be fair, not seconds.
And, without getting off topic, I'm not saying barrels can't have sweet spots. Just that testing with such precision allows too many other factors to play into the mix, like..the "dew point of ambient air." Everything becomes a factor at such orders of magnification, like a military sniper trying to hit a target a mile away (e.g. humidity, curvature of the earth, temperature.)
Then there's the cost of putting aside other areas of focus proven to advance play, as time is limited--but of course it is your time. I do though wonder if others get driven off course following the wrong paths set by the initially misguided.
Overwetting...readers of your thoughts gleaned that some time back. Certainly you, their author had notions of this as well.
Stan, I am literally going to give you the instruction manual to guaranteed success. All you have to do is follow it.
Take out a reed you've broken in. Dip 1/2 of it in water for a second. Strap it on. Unless it totally is unplayable, live with it. That's clarinet. Take out Bearmann studies and practice all his variation of scales with precision--to the point where your muscle memory does an F# major scale, with all the necessary chromatic fingerings, practically by heart.
Faster than you know it, you'll be hitting your C7s on reeds you previously couldn't play.
I promise.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-06-04 18:00
I put the reed in a cup of water while I get ready to play. That can take 5 minutes or a half hour. If the warping of the tip is gone, the reed is ready.
After playing, I wash the reed in hot water. My opinion is that spit contains things besides water, and they need to be removed from the reed, and doing so increases longevity of the reed.
When I can't immediately wash the reed after playing, I'll wash it when I get home. If that is shortly later, I'll put the reed in water for the intervening time. On one occasion, I forgot the reed was in my water cup, and I left it there about 20 hours. The reed did not get "waterlogged"; the next time I used it - after letting it dry for a day - it was fine. Has anyone actually fatally waterlogged a reed? If so, how long did that take?
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-06-04 23:05
It seems to be related somewhat as to where you live. Here on the West Coast, the relative humidity can be quite high, 70 to 80 per cent where I live. For a wiped off cane reed left on a mouthpiece for a day, i can usually pick it up and play without wetting it at all. Yet, I usually give them a quick lick on the vamp. For oboe reeds, I never leave them in a cup of water as some do, as they would become way too stiff and hard to play, especially as I do not prefer loud and bright oboe sounds.
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