 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-03-26 17:56
Is there a simple modification to make the twelfths between the chalameau and the clarion narrower?
Burt Marks
enthusiastic clarinetist
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2016-03-26 18:12
inverted taper bore barrel (wider at top than bottom)
Many are available.
Disclaimer, I make them.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-03-26 22:23
It depends upon the problem. For one note flat in the low register, an undercutting of the proper tone hole can do it. This can be done by an expert clarinet tuner person. Good luck!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-27 01:55
A "sharper" mouthpiece will help: Vandoren Standard, Hawkins, Portnoy
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-03-27 19:58
Alseg: I'll look at Moennig barrels. I sent Vandoren an e-mail trying to find out whether my mouthpiece is "large bore".
Steven: The twelfths get wider as the notes get higher.
Wes: It's not specifically one note, although first line E is the most extreme.
Paul: I use a Vandoren M30 type 13 profile 88. I consider that a "flat" mouthpiece, since I need a 63mm barrel. I didn't see anything on the Vandoren web site about a "standard". Can "sharp" be consistent with wide gap and long taper (I double on sax)?
All: Thanks for the responses.
Burt Marks
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-27 20:49
Burt wrote:
> Paul: I use a Vandoren M30 type 13 profile 88. I consider that
> a "flat" mouthpiece, since I need a 63mm barrel.
Whoa! What clarinet is this?
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-03-27 21:52
If your clarinet is a Buffet, a 63 mm. barrel is excessively short and will throw out the intonation throughout the instrument. The normal length is 66 or 67.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-03-27 22:13
I have a Ridenour 576be and a Ridenour Libertas. With my old pre-R13 and the M30, I used a 65mm DEG Eddie Daniels barrel.
Burt
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-27 22:46
I'm assuming the M30 is a Series 13? Vandoren makes it in both the 13 and a Traditional.
I would think Tom Ridenour would be the best authority on the problem you're having. He certainly doesn't design clarinets to play out of tune.
Karl
Post Edited (2016-03-27 22:47)
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2016-03-28 04:02
I've never been able to get in tune. If you pull out to get the clarion in tune, then the throat tones go flat. But if you push in to get the throat tones in tune, then the clarion is sharp. No way to win.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-28 07:26
Not the poster's problem, but Johnny, you need to tune to the open "G." You do that in a relaxed manner, so there is no undue stress, just play the note easy (so that you still have room to adjust up OR down with your embouchure. With this approach you'll find the throat notes will lie a little lower as well (so what I'm saying is that the pushed in stance you describe should be your "IN-TUNE").
I think your problem is that you are "biting."
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-03-28 17:03
I Agree with Ken Shaw about the barrel size but that will depend on the mouthpiece you're using and how you voice your different registers. You could simply be voicing you're upper 12th to high. With that said, assuming you're in love with your mouthpiece I'd suggest trying different barrels and sizes. If you're actually using a 63mm that does sound awfully small. I'd suggest trying some 65 and 66s for starters. If you notice the general intonation is better with one size, good throat tones and break notes, I'd then try a few different tapers and manufactures. Dr. Alan Segal makes a good quality barrel, I use his on my Selmer Bb, but he costumes makes them so unless you live near him, which you don't, there's no way of telling until you try. There are many custom makers today but you have to play them before you pay. Every barrel and mouthpiece are different even when they are the same model. It's like snow flakes, they may look alike but each is just slightly different.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-03-29 03:00
I've found that it takes a 63mm barrel on my Libertas to get throat "A" in tune. Using a longer barrel does not help the twelfths. Yes, I can force the notes sharper, but that makes the twelfths worse.
Where does one find a 62-64mm Moennig or Chadash (preferably not wood)? I can't find the DEG web site.
I'm also in direct communication with Tom Ridenour. He doesn't advertise a Moennig barrel, but one can hope.
Burt Marks
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-29 03:18
Burt wrote:
>>I've found that it takes a 63mm barrel on my Libertas to get throat "A" in tune. >>
You do know, don't you, that G, G#, A are independent of the rest of the clarinet, to the extent that you can tune them how you want?
Sometimes, wood changes: see my just previous posts in this thread.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-29 04:36
I wrote:
>> You do know, don't you, that G, G#, A are independent of the rest of the clarinet, to the extent that you can tune them how you want? >>
Perhaps that's too cryptic. For many people, the idea that you may alter toneholes in order to tune relevant notes is unimaginable.
Yet, you can do it, and in both directions. You can enlarge the G, G# and A toneholes with a suitably designed cutter, and reduce them with wax or nail varnish if required.
It may be that your instrument would benefit from such modification. If you don't feel up to it, there are technicians who can help you.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-29 05:21
Do other players find the same problems when they try your clarinet?
Tony
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-29 05:46
Burt wrote:
> I'm also in direct communication with Tom Ridenour. He doesn't
> advertise a Moennig barrel, but one can hope.
>
Maybe he doesn't think a Moennig-style reverse taper works well with his clarinet design. In any case, it seems as if your first issue is to improve the twelfths if possible, not whether you can get a barrel of a particular length or bore taper.
If it were my problem, I wouldn't ask Tom about a barrel, I'd ask him if he knows why the twelfths are out and what he recommends to fix them.
Karl
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-03-29 17:12
I agree, and that's what I just did. No answer yet...
Burt Marks
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-03-29 21:45
My experience:
* A wider/narrower barrel and mouthpiece will only affect the 12ths of the left hand tones.
* Reverse taper shape on the barrel does not affect 12ths in any measurable way. Only barrel volume does. I tested with two barrels with the same average bore diameter but with different shapes.
I have tested two Libertas. Both had flat E4 to F#4, -10 to -15 cents.
Tom Ridenour will tell that you'll have to finger these tones when they are exposed. My impression is it is a design idea of the Libertas.
If you select a narrower barrel and mouthpiece the 12ths in your left hand will decrease. Your E4 to F#4 will be less flat but your B5 to C6 will now also be flat! The latter is a problem. You will need to bite the high notes and can't play them loud, unless you finger them.
Post Edited (2016-03-29 22:05)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-30 02:44
So, now I understand the situation a little better.
I had assumed that your twelfths had become worse over time. Hence my suggestion that the bore had altered, and my posts about that.
I don't want to apologise: we should all know that such change over time can happen, and that you can correct it by altering the bore a bit.
However on a good clarinet, twelfths are always to some extent out of tune. You can make them in tune by REALLY altering the bore; but that makes the clarinet 'less good' in another sense. It gives the instrument a much less resonant lower register, for instance.
So it's best to compensate for the out of tune notes locally, and accept the compromise.
The Ridenour instrument may intentionally make the compromise in a way that you can't or don't want to compensate for.
Let us know how your conversation with him goes.
Tony
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2016-03-31 19:44
Tony is absolutely right.
On most clarinets, it is possible to construct a barrel where the upper 12ths are "in tune". However, this usually results in a more strident, less vibrant tone.
Once you reach this point, you can slightly widen the bore of the barrel with an appropriate reamer, until the tone begins to open up. This can usually be accomplished without creating more than a 5 cent spread in the 12ths.
As Tony says, it's best to compensate for the out of tune notes locally.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Artist quality1193 bass clarinet available NOW!
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