 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-20 20:37
While synthetic reeds have made significant advances in the least 20 years, many advanced players feel that the big picture view of things still ranks cane reeds--at least those good ones we come across--to still be frequent and acceptable and playable over time enough to be the better option over synthetics, despite the search and adjustment costs in possessing them.
Many professionals disagree, whether doublers who need a woodwind to play after 2 seconds in musical measure rests to switch to it, or those who trade off the highest of highs in elusive cane, for the subordinate predictability of synthetics, or those who actually like synthetics better (or get paid to say so.)
(I'm excluding here the entry level player market: a topic for another post.)
What I'd like to know is whether people can offer explanations as to why these two groups play differently--as to identify their differences is to spotlight the areas that synthetic manufacturers need to focus on to make synthetics play more like good cane (or maybe cane to play more like good synthetics.)
I'm not blind to their differences, from the micro tubes that compromise the water sensitive polymer chains of wood, to the injection molding of synthetics. But I wonder if others have a better sense of why, structurally, they play differently.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-03-20 22:32
I have come to view synthetic and cane reeds as 2 different answers to the same question, that will never be identical. Each has good points and bad. Neither is superior, each is better or just preferred by some people in some situations. An analogy would be whether a ski trip or a tropical surfing trip is a better vacation, assuming those are your only choices, and you can only choose one. Would you lament that your surfing tour operator cannot provide a snow skiing experience while you are in Maui? Or vice versa for Aspen?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-20 22:46
Great question.
I have really been in the weeds on this topic over the last five months. I have in fact found a very good synthetic (Legere) reed and mouthpiece combination that offers very high end results.
Even given my latest results, I would say that in in side by side (and I hate to even speak in those terms any more.......good results are good results) cane still has the edge. Cane is more forgiving of embouchure changes (or flexible if you prefer that perspective). Your playing boundaries are bigger with cane.
In addition cane still offers a bit more overtones to the sound.
When you are presented with a working Legere combination though, you must consider the trade-offs. With Legere you have a reed (and I mean one single reed) that may last a year or more. So instead of spending $45 dollars per box of reeds, every month for a grand total of approximately $450 per year, you only spend $25. That's a bid difference.
Constancy, as you mention is a BIG deal. Even when not switching from horn to horn in 3 beats, it is great to KNOW exactly how you are going to sound from day to day, hour to hour (not a hallmark of cane by any means).
So that's WHAT is at stake.
HOW they are different mechanically is hard to say. I find when you break a reed, it has snap to it. I am sure that quality is part of what manifests in the sound. If you try to 'break' a Legere it sort of just twists and bends, going out of shape. And that may be what happens on a micro level to make the sound less pointed, defined, sharp.
But, you can get really good results from Legere that are perfectly acceptable. At least I have of late with German mouthpieces and German cut Legeres.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2016-03-20 23:13
I can imagine sound concept changing to better fit with synthetic reeds. And we can't forget that it's much easier to find a cane reed that fits your mouthpiece rather than a synthetic since there are just far more options for cane reeds than synthetics. This is something I can see will change really quickly. When you find a mouthpiece synthetic combo that works, it works REALLY well.
Fernando
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Author: jcm499
Date: 2016-03-21 00:13
I started playing Légère about ten years ago because it made switching between Bb and A clarinets in orchestra very easy, and let me have different setups for each horn: more resistance on the Bb and less resistance on the A, for example. After scrutinizing recordings of the orchestra, I switched back to cane (Vandoren 56 Rue Lepic). It seemed the cane reed offered a livelier sound with more highs, especially in the throat tones, which allowed me to “float” over the orchestra better. Comparatively, the Légère seemed sort of dull and muffled in that range. (I thought the same thing about the upper altissimo, but orchestra parts rarely venture there).
Now that I am playing exclusively jazz and pop, I’m back to Légère. The Signature for tenor sax is superb, but on clarinet I’m still using the classic and haven’t tried the Signature yet. In this field, having a cleaner, somewhat less complex tone is totally fine and maybe preferable. What an opera singer prizes as “squillo” is harsh and piercing to the pop listener.
I actually think the difference in feel between cane and synthetic is much greater than the difference in sound, which mistakenly leads players to believe the difference in sound is greater than it is. It’s like the mouthpiece patch: a player might think it drastically alters his tone if he doesn’t realize it just dampens the vibrations he feels through his top teeth!
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-03-21 03:59
I think synthetics have reached a level that 'getting as good as cane' is no longer an issue. A tremendous number of top players globally now play synthetics exclusively--and they do so because they feel the sound is equal or superior in quality.
Cane is simply not the benchmark it once was, and most of us who switched to synthetics full time (for me it was all the way back in 2001) don't care about cane at all.
I personally think cane reed manufacturers would be smart, in terms of self-preservation, to develop their own synthetics.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-03-21 05:36
For me the problems are a tendency for the sound to spread and the tendency of altissimo notes to go flat. If I use a harder strength to solve the altissimo flatness, those reeds seem stuffy in the chalumeau unless I use a good deal more pressure than I like.
I've always felt intuitively that the issue might simply be the profiles of the synthetic designs. The problem is, I suppose, that the material doesn't have the same resilience as cane, so just copying a standard cane design almost certainly won't work. I think the design process had to start from scratch. Probably it already has, but the designers of Legere and Forestone haven't found the profile that makes me comfortable.
The real problem, though, most likely isn't the profiles of the existing models. I don't really like the way most cane reeds come out of the box. So I adjust them - the models that need the least adjustment from me are my regular choices. Adjusting a synthetic reed is much harder, at least with the tools that are available. So, maybe what's needed isn't for more design in the reeds themselves, but more effective ways to modify them as needed (or wanted). With cane, adjustment depends on the idiosyncrasies of the individual reed. With the greater consistency of synthetic reeds, whatever reshaping we do could also be more predictable and with practice, consistent.
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-03-21 08:53
Some of the reason for preferences of cane over plastics is that a player may have a MP that they really like (and possibly highly regarded and expensive, too) and have been using for a while, ... and a Legere reed (especially the Signatures) may not work well with that particular MP.
.
If you are bound and determined to use a synthetic, for it's consistency, stability and long life, you have to find a MP that works, which might mean sadly putting your trusty old friend in the shoe box with the other MPs not in use.
Experimentation is the key to getting best performance with synthetics. Once you get the brand, model and strength "dialed in" with a complementary MP, you are on the road to fewer headaches and more time to make music.
I suspect the Legere Signature reeds work well with fairly "flat" facings, that is, a facing that has little curvature between the start to the tip, and this usually means less resistance or "hold" ... My M30-lyre (even though more open) works and sounds much better with a Legere Signature than, say a 5RV-lyre or M13. The M30-lyre can take a stronger reed than either of those two and is much more free blowing.
Tom
Post Edited (2016-03-21 08:54)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-03-21 10:01
Walter Grabner AWS PER Zinner works splendidly with the Legere Signature.
Post Edited (2016-03-21 15:06)
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2016-03-21 18:20
For me, the best synthetic reeds (which for me these days are the Legere Signature and the Forestone black bamboo) are about 95% as good as a really spectacular cane reed. Since those are rare, and even when you get one you have to worry about how long it will last, rotating, etc. It's just not worth the extra 5% - at least not to me. Having to use reeds that aren't spectacular much of the time - constant adjustments , etc. is too big of a headache, and takes too muych time away from playing and practicing. I made the switch 5-6 years ago, and have not looked back. I have never been more pleased with the overall effectiveness of my reeds, and my reed costs have been reduced dramatically. I'm not going back - ever.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-21 20:10
I think you can coalesce many of the statements above. Legere work great if you use a mouthpiece with a long lay, small tip opening and use a less aggressive embouchure. I needed to switch to German mouthpieces to get myself to give up the "biting." But since there are good players on standard Boehm mouthpieces who do get good results I imagine that they must tend toward this style of play.
Cane is just more forgiving. You can push on it and it still perform well. The Legeres seem to get the best performance when you just let them vibrate without putting any (or much) stress upon them. Many of us have gravitated toward a more aggressive embouchure to get a large vibrant sound. There still may be an advantage or two for this technique (being able to bring pitch DOWN to a fair degree when needed just with the embouchure as an example). But overall, Bas DeJong of Viotto mouthpieces has the better idea........"just blow." You can get the same wonderful classical clarinet sound this way AND achieve it with less physical stress.
AND............. you can use Legere reeds with GREAT results !!!!!
................Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-21 21:48
Karl: very insightful with regards to the idea that copying a cane reed's shape/contour with a non-cane substance may be counterproductive, and since we all can pick a great reed differently based on embouchure and mouthpiece differences, that in their limited adjustability alone, synthetics may be disadvantaged.
Stan: "I have come to view synthetic and cane reeds as 2 different answers to the same question, that will never be identical."
You may be right. But consider how far synthetics have come in the last 20 years. Maybe a poor analogy, but I never envisioned a car (the Tesla, soon others) driving itself.
Others: perhaps I suffer from bias, being schooled in the idea that one picks their mouthpiece, and then reeds to work around it. Perhaps it's more a team effort, particular in the synthetic world; maybe even the other way around in this space.
I suspect I'm not the only one not completely comfortable picking the "car" (the mouthpiece) based on comparisons of "side view mirrors" (synthetic reeds) first. Again--a limited analogy.
jcm499: I hear you on orchestral clarinet swapping being the impetus for become a synthetic convert, but wonder if simply using different mouthpieces and strength cane reeds on each instrument might have been no less effective, or even the same model of mouthpiece on each horn (I guess hard to do with customized mouthpieces) just different strength reeds on each.
Who said oboe players don't have it easy ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) . The can just form a reed with a synthetic on one side, and cane on the other.
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Author: Dick
Date: 2016-03-21 22:22
Curiosity - Has anyone ever made reeds out of "ordinary" wood, rather than cane?
Dick
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-03-21 23:17
As an addendum to my earlier comment, I'd add that I think the whole "specially designed synthetic reed mouthpiece" things is a bit of a marketing ploy, at least from my perspective. I've played synthetics on vintage Selmer mouthpieces, Zinners, vintage German mouthpieces, and for the last two years, original facing vintage Brilharts (c. 1938). No problems whatsoever. Of course everyone is different...I'd just say make sure you play for yourself and don't rule anything out based on marketing...
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: kilo
Date: 2016-03-21 23:41
Quote:
Has anyone ever made reeds out of "ordinary" wood, rather than cane?
Dr. Michael White had one custom made out of maple — he liked it when it was new but I don't know how it held up over time.
I believe that since humans have been making musical sounds with reeds for thousands of years I'm sure people have tried using wood before. The fact that we still use cane as the standard would indicate that the attempts weren't particularly successful.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-03-22 00:15
I suggest that my analogy is actually pretty accurate. It is very unlikely that someone in the middle of a great surfing experience (which I've never done) might momentarily be confused and think they're skiing (which I've also never done), nor vice versa. Even though both might be wonderful experiences, perhaps even similar in certain respects. Likewise- an experienced clarinetist is NEVER going to be confused, even momentarily, about whether he/she is playing on a cane or synthetic reed- whichever it is they prefer. Any dispute on that?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-03-22 00:35)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-03-22 02:48
Hi All,
Since using Legere' reeds on both Bb soprano and bass clarinet for almost a year now, I must say that the best thing about using a synthetic is there are few surprises.
After a rehearsal or performance you take the reed off and put it in its holder, swab the instrument, disassemble it and put it in the case. Next time, you open the case and get the instrument out and assemble it, wet the reed (force of habit takes a long time to break) and put it on the MP, make any needed small adjustments, and you play.
How much simpler can this be? And as Marty M. says above that about 95% of the time the reed is as good as a really spectacular cane reed. Granted, you must get the right reed strength, brand, whatever.
I do not use any different MP when I use a synthetic reed. But I've found out an interesting thing in that "whatever ligature I use makes little difference" with a Legere'. So use a cheap VD SS Series which is about as easy to get on an off as anything (I have ALL the ligatures one would want to own).
I remember John Moses and William Fuller talking convincingly about the advantages of synthetic reeds. MartyM has it right about not chasing 5%.
HRL
PS I do still pull out a VD 3 1/2 on my Bb Soprano from time to time but those days are getting fewer and fewer. My Borbeck 16 seems to tolerate the synthetic very well BTW.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2016-03-24 01:41
Quote:
Likewise- an experienced clarinetist is NEVER going to be confused, even momentarily, about whether he/she is playing on a cane or synthetic reed- whichever it is they prefer. Any dispute on that?
No dispute — but to me the question is, "Can the listener tell the difference?"
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-24 06:44
Wow...coming from you David I'm going to try them.
You said this about the D'Addario's product offering a while back, I wondered if you were biased, but decided to take your advice, and I was blown away at the consistently good results I got across reeds in this product line, just as you had said.
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2016-03-25 06:32
The new Legere is real great. Runs really soft though. I used a 3.25 Legere signature and the 3.5 European signature was too soft.
Fernando
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2016-03-25 18:05
My understanding is that one of the major challenge for synthetis is to get the tip as thin as cane.
Anyway, I started experimenting with Legere in the late 90s, but always found myself going back to cane.
I am playing a show right now with a few tricky soft entrances after long tacets which makes me really nervous when playing cane. I bought a signature 3.75 and found it to be a great match with a Vandoren M15 (13) but unfortunately only work ok with my Behn vintage mouthpiece. For this show, I think I'll go synthetic, it's just a safer setup.
Next on the docket for me is Copland Symphony #3, which is a challenge for any reed/mouthpiece combination with both lyrical wide legato intervals, and fast staccato altissimo playing. In my practice so far, I find the Behn/cane combination a more flexible setup.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-03-25 18:37
Been addicted to cane since 1961. Many years in Theater Pits made me wish something would happen. Synthetics of the late '80s to very recent times were abysmal. Then I found Legere. I tried their various types, and thought the Quebec Cut was quite nice. Then they discontinued them. Never really fully converted, used them in pits, with quick horn changes. Then I tried the Signature Legere Reeds. Truthfully, I was not impressed, I found them stuffy and non-responsive. Still, I kept hoping. Last show, I pulled several Signatures out of the "stuff" drawer, and found them rather wonderful! What the heck? Now, just received my first couple batches of the European Cut, and I'm SOLD! On Eb too! These are the real deal! Full range, full dynamic control, great response, and most important - a wonderful sound!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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