 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-11 21:23
Don't Michael Collins, Jerome Voisin, and Josef Fuster still play Yamahas? I know Dave Schfrin switched to Backun.
Post Edited (2016-03-11 21:58)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-03-11 21:28
There have been several (many) who have switched - yes.
Lots of Clarinet innovations these days. I think Morrie raised the bar so high that the other manufacturers realized that problems needed to be worked on.
Innovations help everyone.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-11 22:19
Ok, I am responding more to the comment about "one person playing Yamaha clarinets."
Of course that was meant in jest, and yet the follow up suggests one manufacturer has found a solution for everyone.
Disclaimer: I have not tried the very top of the line Backun clarinets. Further, I do respect that Morrie Backun himself is a master craftsmen.
HOWEVER, I have not liked any of the other "less than top of the line" horns from Backun Clarinets that I HAVE tried. I find them to be acoustically flawed and even mechanically logy. I cannot say the same for Yamaha, which has a full line of very well made clarinets that respond correctly, play in tune and are always very mechanically superior to others in the same price range.
I further disclaim in that I do play Yamaha CSGs which are my personal favorite, but I would second what Julie DeRoche said about not having to try a passel of Yamahas to find a good one. I bought my Bb CSG the day I tried one for the first time and sold the store my R13 on the spot. I then ordered an "A" about a year later and kept the one that came to the store on trial.
Try that with a Buffet or Backun.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-03-11 22:32
Easily try that with a MoBa, or now the F Series.
I have students with the Yamaha - and they switched to MoBa (before studying with me, high level Skype students who sought me out after switching).
The MoBa and the previous Protege are two completely different animals.
New Protege is greatly improved for less resistance. Scale was always great, but was a bit resistant for younger players.
F Series would easily put up against a top model Yamaha.
F and the MoBa are a different level. Easily an F against an R-13, and the MoBa against the top models (why would a high level player playing a Tosca switch to a MoBa after trying one? - happened more than once I have seen from trying mine).
Just saying (my original post) that the numbers of new Yamaha Artists are minimal, and long time Artists are also dwindling.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-03-11 23:20
Yamaha has always made a really nice clarinet. They play well, tune well and are very consistent. I agree that you could likely order one sight unseen and have a really nice instrument.
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2016-03-11 23:36
At NAMM I tried all of the big name clarinets. The Backuns were in tune but felt very stuffy to me. ( I tried a few different reeds). The gem for me was the Yamaha CSG II. (Still extremely happy with my Libertas)
AAAClarinet
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Author: gwie
Date: 2016-03-12 13:57
I thought the MoBa and Model F clarinets from Backun where really quite impressive at NAMM.
That being said, I do own pairs of the Yamaha CSG and Yamaha CSVR, and find them to be excellent instruments overall. From an economic standpoint, they are a bargain! In particular, I prefer the CSG A clarinet because it is noticeably lighter than its competitors, and I don't have as much arm fatigue over a long concert using it.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-03-12 17:11
But Buffet still has that special ringing resonance that no one can match. Must be some special secret process in the manufacturing that creates the magic.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-03-12 17:28
I think that brightness is different than ring, resonance and presence.
At the same time, a certain amount of brightness is not a bad thing. I hear a lot of effort from some to make everything "dark". To me, it can be a little dull and lacking in the full range of color which the clarinet is capable of producing.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2016-03-12 17:57
I've played Buffet's, and I had ring in the sound. I also played Rossi and now Yamaha CSG's...and I still have ring in the sound.
Nobody mentioned John Yeh for Yamaha?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: BbMajorBoy
Date: 2016-03-12 19:05
I think you mean Michael Collins.
Leonard Bernstein: "To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time."
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2016-03-12 22:52
Whatever the tone, it's best made with as much clarity as possible. I actually prefer brilliance to the tone. If you want a mellow sound, go for it. Just avoid fuzziness.
Btw, the Yamaha CSVR has a very unique tone. It's one of the few clarinets I've tried where the tone difference was pretty dramatic. The sound, for me, was quite small though.
Fernando
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2016-03-12 23:20
There is a sort of paradox that is going on in clarinet playing....most players think bright bright is louder but that is not so. A full deep sound will project on a clarinet much better than a light buzzy tone. That being said..I think the Yamaha line of clarinets..the CSVR is a very fine instrument.
it is also about playing the instrument with dynamics..not loud!
David Dow
Post Edited (2016-03-12 23:21)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-13 01:13
Ah, at last, the discussion is finally coming round to the qualities of the particular clarinet in question, the CSVR Yamaha. I think Yamaha in many of their previous models, the SEV and the CSV especially, has sort of been circling around the Buffet R13, trying to appropriate many of its more appealing characterists, and possibly also trying to improve its flaws. R13s have, at their best, had a "ping" and a central resonance hard to equal in other clarinets. They have been responsive to fine shadings of tonal color and expression in the hands of the best players. But they have also been a bit uneven in distributed timbral quality, with an occassional real dud of a sound on some notes, and a tendency to become shrill and cutting in the upper altissimo. And their tuning has not always not been as good as one might wish.
The Yamaha SEV (is this still the model Yeh plays?) comes close to the Buffet R13 but is not as resonant as the R13 in the low register. Both the SEV and CSV have a balance of scale right out the box which, in an R13, can often only be achieved by the extensive and expensive set-up work of a great technician. To my ears, the CSVR is the closest yet that Yamaha has come to catch the sound of a good R13, and it has a fuller, less cutting altissimo. This time, though, it doesn't seem to me that Yamaha wanted to really copy the R13 sound; they wanted to keep the ping but give their new model more smoothiness, roundness and cover, perhaps in a little bow to Backun's clarinets? Though I still find the sound of the CSVR low register hollower and relatively lacking in overtones compared to that of a good R13, I like the sound overall and appreciate the feel and balance of the keywork.
As to the size of the CSVR sound as compared with that of an R13 from the perspective of an audience in a large concert hall, I am completely unsure. It is hard if not impossible for a player to tell the qualities of the instrument as perceived by the audience, and I still haven't had an opportunity to hear anyone performing live on a CSVR in that enviroment.
Post Edited (2016-03-15 01:11)
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Author: moma4faith
Date: 2016-03-13 20:21
In the right hands, I believe a Buffet R13 can be bright, or dark, with a sweetness and clarity, as well as versatility and response, and distinct beauty. Truly, "the sweetest clarinet ever made".....
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-13 20:37
Good points "mom4faith." The musician is what we hear when we listen to music, not the horn.
I have toned down my anti-Buffet rhetoric in the last few years. I have found them to be somewhat inconsistent in pitch (on a micro, but important level) from horn to horn, BUT the bottom line is that R13s (in particular) are well made, good playing horns. I in fact just play tested a random R13 just a few days ago that was pretty remarkable.
I apologize for getting somewhat snarky above. I don't want the point lost that Yamaha has brought a remarkable level of consistency to the construction of their horns. More so, in my opinion than any other mass produced horn today.
F. Arthur Uebel also has some really consistent production as well but they are still a smaller up and coming OEM (new here in the States that is).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2016-03-14 07:29
To answer a question above: John Yeh plays an SEV-master KF (Kazuo Fuji). Before that he played the SEV-master.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2016-03-14 07:38
Tobin wrote:
> To answer a question above: John Yeh plays an SEV-master KF
> (Kazuo Fuji). Before that he played the SEV-master.
>
> James
I was just visiting with Fujii-sensei a couple of weeks ago at his student's recitals in Tokyo. I didn't know he was consulting with Yamaha.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-03-14 17:22
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> It's always been the Sound, not the Scale, ergonomics, consistency that has > been the issue with Yamaha.
Very true, also for their saxes.
However... I bought a pair of SEVs for their tone: very rich and resonant. The SEV is Yamaha's copy/answer to Buffet's RC Prestige. It also has the 'groove' in the bell. But I think the sound has even more overtones and focus than the Buffet (with all good and bad consequences).
Quality of wood and mechanics are superb. Intonation is spot on with a tuning device.
Seems perfect... on paper and at home. But in ensembles and in concert halls:
The projection is not always as good as you would expect and is very dependent on hall acoustics: too dark or too bright. Surpringly I have to work harder on intonation to keep in tune with everyone. I am even thinking to start experimenting with other barrels to get wider twelths in the upper clarion. I guess that playing together with a piano might be easier though.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-03-14 20:36
I guess its no accident that 89 out of every 100 clarinets sold are made by Buffet Crampon.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-14 21:00
Ah, well the intonation thing in a section is the rub!
It may have more to do with the intonation characteristics (this note a little higher and this note a little lower) of the other horns in the section. If your other section mates are on R13s, it may just be that they let some of the "discrepancies" slip for expedience sake and sacrifice you to the "Gods of Buffet."
If you are fortunate enough to play in a high end group where your second clarinet player (or section) is spot on with intonation, that should not be a problem.....as long as you are spot on as well.
I had a similar situation when I had a brief fling with a Leblanc Concerto. In that case the issue was overtones. By itself it sounded fine, but it got lost in a section of Buffets. That is a real world issue to keep in mind when the question comes up, "does it matter what make of clarinet I play?"
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-03-14 21:39
In my section of many of the best band players anywhere, the MoBa cuts right through.
I was very very surprised by that. Nancy Buckman told me and then I heard it on the recording.
Has a certain center to the tone but I didn't have nearly as much on my Prestige.
However do regular Rico reeds sell more than Vandoren?
Could be the same principle
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2016-03-14 22:27
"Author: Clarineteer (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net - (Comcast Cable) Abington, PA United States)
Date: 2016-03-14 20:36
I guess its no accident that 89 out of every 100 clarinets sold are made by Buffet Crampon."
Indeed. I guess that means the third clarinet sections of casual community bands will remain loyal to Buffet. So let them enjoy that "ping" in the sound. However for the rest of us that play concertos, do orchestral and chamber music with our peers and in front of other people, we'll go seek better options.
Yes, there are well made buffets out there. However you literally have to be on the inside track to have a go at them. What this means is what is left over at the WWBW or your local shop is pretty much not workable. What I can assure most people is that nearly every yamaha at a store like WWBW will beat out its counterpoint in the buffet line. This benefits regular clarinetists, which the majority of us are. Regular people can have get a clarinet with good intonation, consistent sound and not have to spend $7,000.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-03-14 23:08
So, James, have you tried the new Yahama CSVR and what do you think of it in comparison, say, with other Yamaha models and the Buffet R13?
By the way, to be fair, Buffets continue to be played by the likes of Martin Frost, Sharon Kam, Greg Raden, Burt Hara, Olivier Patey, Anthony McGill, Borris Allajhverdyan, Jon Manasse, etc--a far cry from third chair in a community band! More like first chair in an all-star, world-class orchestra. And some of these still prefer the basic R13 model to the boutique "upgrades."
Post Edited (2016-03-18 00:01)
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2016-03-15 01:04
Seebreeze,
I tried the CSVR at the Midwest Clinic. It absolutely out performs the r13 in every respect out of the box. It does feel more like a good r13/RC to me. I am however a CSGII player and those are much more in line with the Germanic sound I identify with.. It's great that Yamaha makes consistent clarinets for people with different needs in clarinets.
The people you mentioned enjoy all star privilege. They get first hand access to the very best. What you see in their hands is nothing like you'd see at the local music shop, even if it's the same model.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-03-15 01:33
Being a seller of older R13's I see a minimum of 50 older R13's and Pre R13's go through my shop every year and there are still some amazing instruments out there.
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