 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: runner
Date: 2016-03-02 21:30
Last night I noticed rhythm exercise sheet on my clarinet students stand. I asked her if this is what her high school band uses in warm ups. (She is a junior) and I was her first private lesson teacher).
She said "No" and that was what her other teacher (private) uses during lessons.
This really puzzled me. Was I not working with rhythm with her. Comparatively, her rhythm is better than most of the students I have taught.
Is this an unusual occurrence? I've never experienced this situation nor have I ever heard of one like this.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-02 23:21
Runner, please clarify. Are you focusing on the disparity in rhythm lessons between a High School music teacher and another private music teacher, apart from you: yet another private music teacher for this student?
I'm as confused as to your point as you are to your circumstances.
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Author: runner
Date: 2016-03-02 23:28
Dave,
Basically, I discovered that my students parents brought on another private teacher to focus on rhythm. Her sense of rhythm is as good as any student I've had. I feel it is unusual to do this. This is not figure skating where a top level skater will have several coaches/choreographers.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2016-03-02 23:51
I'd talk to the parents. This seems unusual. My first thought was that the student was getting semi-private lessons at school, but that's apparently not the case. (Several schools in my area do this and I frequently have them in my private studio also; the school lessons are required but they also want the one-on-one time.)
Yes, talking to the parents will be awkward. Those conversations are not fun...Best wishes on it!
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Author: runner
Date: 2016-03-03 00:10
Thanks Katrina. I agree.
I've jokingly asked a student if they are also taking lessons from another teacher. This occurs when I hear unusual progress. Luckily they say know. It is probably the result of listening and practicing.
I stated to my student that I want her to spend much tinme on scales and the 1st movement of the Poulenc. I asked my student if her other teacher" saw what I was working with her and she said that the teacher (saxophonist) didn't know the piece.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2016-03-03 00:44
Could she be taking saxophone lessons in addition to clarinet?
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-03 00:49
This seems unconventional to say the least. You can quiz the student a little more about how the other private arrangement started and how often she sees the other teacher. Or you can ask the parents.
I think if I were in your situation I would try to show an attitude of curiosity and avoid sounding confrontational at least at first. My ultimate attitude would depend on the reasons and the actual relationship that's involved. Is this a family friend trying to help? Some extra 1-on-1 coaching recommended by the teacher at school? An area (rhythmic accuracy) that the student felt weak in (regardless of your evaluation)? Is it scheduled regularly or on an ad hoc basis? Is your student practicing other material than the rhythm studies with the other teacher? Is the other teacher teaching her to play saxophone?
Ultimately, it may not necessarily interfere with what you're doing, but it's hard to see what the point would be of taking side lessons on clarinet with a sax teacher. You certainly want to know what's going on and whether what you and the other teacher are doing is complementary or conflicting.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-03 01:01
It sounds strange Bob. It could only mean one of these things
![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
1)
Bob--I've been meaning to talk to you....I don't know how to say this but....you have no rhythm.
It's like to music...what Elaine Benis of Seinfeld was to dancing....
https://youtu.be/HQu_NLRvULM?t=23s
You student's parents having been lining up to acquire rhythm teachers, too afraid to say something and hurt your feelings.
(I kid of course. I don't know you.)
OR
2)
There's some aspect to this story you're not aware of
OR
3)
The parents are missing something,
OR
4)
like me, when practicing clarinet for the '44 olympics in London, I had a reed coach, and embouchure coach, a rhythm coach, a finger coach, an intonation coach, an articulation coach, a breathing coach, and even a coach that helped me with (gasp) the music.
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2016-03-03 02:08
Working with multiple teachers on the same instrument seems quite common among violinists and pianists, sometimes guitarists. Though most I've heard that try to do this are for beginners, not advanced students which this might be more suitable.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-03 03:07
Gosh I think this WONDERFUL for the student whose parents are willing and financially capable of doing so. Every teacher has their own set of priorities (hears certain things, emphasizes certain things) and every student can benefit from hearing the same problems approached in different ways.
It almost seems like a worry over "territory" or whether you'll lose a student to another teacher. As long as you are satisfied with doing a good job for the student you needn't worry about it no matter what the results (from your standpoint).
The more teachers a student has, the better !!!!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2016-03-03 03:43
I agree with Paul--if the student learns to play really well, then you and the student's other teacher will benefit, and that benefit will enhance you reputation as much as that of the other teacher.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-03 03:58
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Every teacher
> has their own set of priorities (hears certain things,
> emphasizes certain things) and every student can benefit from
> hearing the same problems approached in different ways.
>
>
> It almost seems like a worry over "territory" or whether you'll
> lose a student to another teacher. As long as you are
> satisfied with doing a good job for the student you needn't
> worry about it no matter what the results (from your
> standpoint).
>
My knee-jerk reaction when I read the original post was similar. But as I thought about it, I came more to a different point of view. I think whether this kind of arrangement is useful or possibly counterproductive depends on a couple of things - the most important being the student's level of development.
The reality is that a teacher doesn't really do a good job or a bad job or any kind of job *for* a student, though that may just have been a casual choice of words. The teacher's function is to provide whatever help the student needs to improve his or her playing in whatever ways need improvement. As the student advances, this function tends to (should) become less prescriptive and more suggestive, and an advanced student can begin to make judgments among differing, possibly opposing possibilities for solving a specific problem. A less developed player, though, isn't equipped (IMO) with the experience and the self-monitoring skills to have a strong basis for choosing one approach over the other. If multiple teachers of a young student are prescribing a variety of approaches, especially to technical issues, and even more especially if any of those teachers tends to give those prescriptions as "thou shalt" rather than "you might" the student is more apt to be confused than helped.
If there is really a division of labor - one teacher focuses on stylistic approaches and another on reading skills and even a third on technical production, such an arrangement could conceivably work out. Well advanced - even professional - singers have separate repertoire coaches and technique teachers without apparent conflict. But if each teacher is trying to act as a generalist and there isn't good agreement between two teachers about major issues, it seems if a player is below the level of a very good high school student that multiple teachers could do more harm than good.
Look, after all, at some of the conflicting advice dispensed here. What is an average teen-aged or younger student to do with all of that.
All in all, I rather hope this turns out to be a case of separate clarinet and sax teachers.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-03 06:42
Yes of course, all the different opinions offered to students who are not top flight professionals is just confusing.
Let's just close down the Clarinet Bulletin Board then.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-03-03 07:34
I agree with Karl's thoughts. An advanced player may be able to have a variety of teachers and absorb the best from each. For a younger student I would feel that it would be best to have one focussed approach.
A colleague of mine has a student whose parents are insistent on the student having 3 private teachers, thinking the more the merrier. My friend has mentioned that there are often conflicting ideas in tonal concept, equipment, technical issues, choice of fingerings, interpretation, etc which has caused problems.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-03 08:01
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Yes of course, all the different opinions offered to students
> who are not top flight professionals is just confusing.
>
>
>
>
> Let's just close down the Clarinet Bulletin Board then.
>
Oh, for Heaven's sake, Paul, it isn't the same thing and the suggestion is a complete non-sequitur. And sarcasm just muddies the discussion. If you want to argue the point seriously, you ought do it without the snark.
Besides, I didn't say variety was a destructive thing for every student - it's potentially confusing and, therefore, counterproductive for younger, inexperienced students who lack enough background to make meaningful decisions about what they need to improve, much less how to improve it. As a university student, I worked with more than one clarinet teacher and I think I benefited. As a junior high student, I wouldn't have had any idea how to discriminate among differing instructions coming concurrently from different teachers. It was hard enough when the music school I went to changed teachers each year.
Karl
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2016-03-03 18:33
Something else to consider: Does the student have time to practice and fully absorb the lessons from two different teachers?
I never had a professional clarinet teacher, but my piano teacher, Arthur Eisler, gave me so much work that I barely had time to practice Bach and Scarlatti behind his back. (I love the Baroque keyboard composers, but Mr. Eisler wouldn't asssign them because he believed playing their music on a piano instead of a harpsichord was just wrong. I agreed with him but loved the music so much that I disobeyed him anyway.) Doing an adequate job on my schoolwork while practicing the assignments from *two* excellent, demanding teachers would've driven me bats.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2016-03-03 19:00
FWIW, I wasn't objecting to the student having two teachers. I merely found it atypical. I'm also not territorial, but if a student is getting information from another teacher (whether it's a band teacher, additional instrument private lesson teacher, or group lessons at school...whatever) I like to know so I can preface any of my thoughts with caveats.
If another teacher (school band instructors are the easiest to use as examples) isn't primarily a clarinet teacher/player, I use that reasoning to explain any different approaches I might have. I also tell my student that the band teacher's job is to direct the band and have it sound great as a whole and my job is to make each of my students the best clarinet player they can (and want) to be, giving them skills they then use in the band.
My main focus in lessons is _usually_ technique and _how_ to sound/articulate/use air a certain way. I certainly teach them the music too, but so many come to me with habits of body usage for clarinet that don't always produce a sound that's strong/clear/etc.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-03-03 21:02
Woa...
A beginner coming to the board with basic questions is apt to get very similar answers, I think. Where we disagree, it's usually because we all work "blind," and the suggestions tend to by in large all have applicability for the questioner to try, and rule in our out on their own or with their teacher.
An advanced student recognizes the master class like feel of answers here to such questions, and knows that they need to take the advise from those in the know here which works for them.
In private lessons, the less advanced the student, the better that one (accurate) voice speak to them. The more advanced student though must hear different opinions.
...definitely NOT one size fits all.
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Author: moma4faith
Date: 2016-03-03 22:26
I don't agree with a "the more teachers the better" approach, especially for young students. Instructors can have differing opinions on just about everything, and different methods of teaching. This can be confusing for a student.
I had a student's parent tell me they were going to another teacher once a month and then staying with me the other three weeks, to "reinforce" what was taught at the monthly lessons. I politely declined and said that I would not do a good job of running another teacher's lesson. I encouraged the parent to work with the other teacher full time instead.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-03 23:58
What I find surprising is that the parent was open about it. And that undiplomatic.
Karl
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Author: runner
Date: 2016-03-04 04:30
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. I am coming to terms with the unusual situation.
I had a band student who took private clarinet, piano, saxophone, voice and violin lessons. She was head majorette in marching band and played "Daisy Mae in "Little Abner." She went to a conservatory with a violin scholarship. She was the best flute player at the school and was a killer lead tenor in the jazz band. How about that?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-03-04 04:58
They're the unusual ones. Many kids who spread themselves out that much don't accomplish at a high level on any of the instruments they play. Or, like a couple of my students over the years, they take one instrument seriously as their future performing medium and are only looking for exposure to the others. Some of them seem breathtakingly talented. These days with Facebook and other "social media" available, it's easier to keep track of them as they go on to college and beyond.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-03-04 15:09
I also disagree with the notion that the vast percentage of disagreement on the Board is only taking pot shots at an unseeable problem.
Tony Pay has had some wonderful observations and contributions. But we can see that his solutions don't always agree with those of Neidich or Russianoff or Leister. But that's ok.
Many descriptions that we use as teachers are more imagery and analogy than hard cold fact. So one analogy or image may suddenly and unexpectedly serve as an 'awakening' for a student where all the others up to that point had not.
I apologize for the snarky approach above, but the point is still valid. The more different angles that a student can use to approach a problem, the better the chances the student has of picking one that works for her/him.
YES, usually most students in middle school and high school have one teacher at a time, but if they do present with other teachers, that should be no reason to pass on them or equivocate, or change what you say at all. That's not the point.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-03-04 15:55
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> Tony Pay has had some wonderful observations and contributions. But we can see that his solutions don't always agree with those of Neidich or Russianoff or Leister. But that's ok.>>
Well, thank you. But your observation embodies a misconception.
Neidich, Russianoff and Leister AREN'T HERE. What you call their 'solutions' have been drawn from what they have said to various people standing in front of them.
Indeed, when Russianoff speaks to a general audience, as in his books, he often – rightly in my view – equivocates, understanding that what he might say to one person he wouldn't need to say to another. (Indeed, he might have needed to say the opposite.) And students of his have told me that he was much more effective dealing with one person in front of a class than the books seem to indicate.
Here, I haven't offered 'solutions', or told people what to do. I've tried rather to offer understanding of the physical situation, so that the so-called 'solutions' offered by other people can be seen not necessarily to apply to everyone; and to apply – if at all – only in certain circumstances to any one person.
Please, understand this.
Tony
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