 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-02 10:30
David pino in his book describes himself as making a ligature out of shoe laces. I am wondering if anyone has tried it? As I have some questions!
And is it better than a leather ligature?
And do u have a favourite ligature and why?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-02 10:50
German clarinettists traditionally use string ligatures but several have more recently moved to fabric ligatures like those made by Rovner or BG.
I like Rovner fabric ligatures (the standard ones) as they're lightweight and the single band puts even pressure across the heel of the reed. I've been using the same one for thirty years now. They look like leather but are made from a tough woven fabric sandwiched between rubber type layers so they won't slip when you adjust or remove/fit your mouthpiece.
Natural leather ligatures may harden, weaken or lose shape over time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-02 10:56
Thanks Chris, maybe that is what i have. It is Rovner, and cost about 50AUD. I assumed it was leather though. Do you prefer the fabric against the reed or the screw? (Until i read the insert, i didn't realise people did it different ways!)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-02-02 11:20
Hi Sarah - For a long time probably through the 1970's or close to it the Bonade ligature seemed to be the main choice. Towards the late 1970's plastic and cloth came around. Well now you kind of have every possible design there is on the market! At the NAMM Convention I guess it was 2 plus weeks ago now, I saw a lot of crazy ligatures to innovative ones. A person I know named Oleg gave me one of his to try, all metal. You can google him. I really like the sax ligatures a lot.
When you wrap metal to a mouthpiece the mouthpiece will vibrate more. When you add other materials it can deaden the vibrations, sometimes in a good way, which darkens the sound.
I'm using a Bonade, but I modified it by adding hard plastic pieces where the reed and the ligature touch each other. I also gutted a lot of the metal on the ligature to make it as light in weight as possible. This allows the mouthpiece to vibrate freely for me, because I'm not into cutting off or restricting the vibrations of the reeds and the mouthpiece.
Needless to say you will get tons of assorted answers here. I play with a double lip so this feels best for me, but I'm always open to trying new things like the Oleg ligature. That was amazing how much the volume increased on the saxes. I don't play double lip on the saxes, but I'm pretty good on them. I started the clarinet in the 4th grade and the sax in the 5th grade, so I play both very well.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: PaulIsaac
Date: 2016-02-02 12:15
My favourite: Rovner E-1R, it's a fabric ligature that I've had for many years.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-02 12:21
Wow thanks for that thoughtful reply Bob, very interesting (and useful).
Paul, i have some sort of Rovner, I did notice my tone was nice with it than with the selmer metal one, but honestly, until reading Pinos book it never occurred to me to think why.
I wonder if these new ligatures would pass Mr Pino's test as being better than his shoe lace one? He says wrap it around 6 times, but i can't think how the loose end doesn't come undone. One end he tucks in the loops. He doesn't describe what he does with the other. At it almost sounds like he leaves it on all the time.. But I am not quite sure.
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-02 13:31
Silver sorcerer can you please post a picture of your ligature?
kilo thanks.. i have never seen anything like that! Before I buy anything again.. I am going to ask on here first!!!! I think if i had seen that in the shop, i might have bought that one instead.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-02-02 14:07
Ever notice that when you are testing reeds that your thumb seems to be the best ligature? The reeds sound great! Then you put on a ligature and the reed sucks!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-02 14:14
Bob! I had never considered doing that! okay. now to try it!
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Author: Radovan
Date: 2016-02-02 17:07
Im using string clarinet ligature, or "schnur" on german. It takes a little time to set up, but the sound is great. Very lyrical. Playing on: M15 Vandoren mouthpiece, and BC E13 clarinet. Every other ligature will deform your reed, and you will have trouble with altissimo register.
Price: less than 1 USD.
German school is the best. At least for clarinet playing. :-)
Post Edited (2016-02-02 17:17)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-02 19:10
My current choice amongst today's fair is the Vandoren M/O. This is a unique choice for me in that it is NOT based on the time tested Bonade idea of two thin rails running lengthwise against the reed for support. The M/O has two "dimples" at the top and bottom which effectively make reed contact as a line of pressure at the top and one at the bottom.
Maybe this works great in conjunction with the fact that the M/O is pretty thin metal, and uses a pouch like architecture (self leveling; only one inverted screw). For whatever reason it is a simple design that holds a reed securely (even Legeres).
One caveat is that I do score the inside of mine (sand with 360 wet/dry) to prevent slipping up on the mouthpiece.
They are a little pricey for what you get (in terms of material and durability......must not really tighten too much) but are great all around ligatures.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2016-02-02 19:52
I have jumped around over the years from ligature to ligature. For years I used the VanDoren Optimum and still think they are a good choice as are the BGs on my low clarinets. However, I have to say I'm a total convert to the Silvestein ligatures (I use the gold ones). The reed really sings with them. I have them on my Eefer, Bb and bass right now and all are a big improvement over the previous ligatures. Using the Bb ligature on my Selmer basset horn really opens up the sound, a very dramatic effect. Admittedly they are pricey. I'm hoping they come out with ones for the contra clarinets too.
Eefer guy
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2016-02-02 20:03
I have used and tried many ligatures. I have even used string for a small duration of time. My favorite ligature and my current one though is hands down a silver-plated, cut out inverted, Bonade ligature that I have adjusted. The reed vibrates well which is what you want from a good ligature.
Fernando
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Author: ClarinettyBetty
Date: 2016-02-02 21:10
I love my Lomax classic ligature. It's silver-plated, inverted, with a strip of kangaroo leather between the reed and the metal. It's not as restricted as my old Rovner, nor as free as my inverted Bonade. A great "middle man" ligature!
http://www.lomaxclassic.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=201&zenid=6b8713322c0819925607689e74f34426
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2016-02-02 23:39
At NAMM I purchased a Silverstein (original) and an Ishimori (copper/satin gold). Both are better than any other ligature I have tried. The Silverstein is more powerful while the Ishimori is more centered (concentrated sound).
AAAClarinet
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-02-03 02:15
I've always associated metal ligatures with a slightly brighter reed sound/response that say leather/string/plastic, because a metal ligature can, all else equal, hold down the base of the reed strongest, and let the business end do the vibrating better than say leather/string.
This is not necessarily, IMHO, a good or bad thing for everyone, although it is a good thing for me (I like metal ligs). And of course I speak in generalities. A lousy metal lig doesn't hold much of anything.
With leather/plastic/string ligatures, some of this vibration energy--for better or worse--can be transferred to the parts of the reed that touch the mouthpiece, and ergo the mouthpiece itself.
This is analogous to trying to cut a piece of wood held "looser that tight" in a vice. Some of the energy that would normally help the saw to do ts job is compromised in the wood's vibration (i.e. acceptance of some of the saw's energy) with the saw's motion, taking it away from the saw.
Of course with cutting, normally, such energy transfer is bad. With clarinet play, this might be by design and a good or user preferred thing; also far more subtle.
I'm not sure if this conflicts with Mr. Bernardo's reported response one has with metal ligatures, or his explanation behind it. But bottom line, a mouthpiece that's vibrating is, all else equal, taking away energy that could go to reed vibration--again, whether good/bad or by design/unintended is user specific, but not subject to scientific debate regarding the physics.
I am of the opinion that metal's rigidity minimizes vibration in all but the business end of the reed, maximizing the amount of energy in one's embouchure/blow going to the reed vibrating.
There are exceptions to these generalities, badly designed products notwithstanding. Some, myself including, report Silverstein ligatures to play like metal ones despite being classified as string ligatures. I suspect this has in large part to do with the fact that the same chord used to make the ligature was used to actually lower planetary rover equipment (no joke) from landed (but slightly higher up) spacecraft, and like metal, that string/cord has (by design, and why it was chosen for both applications here) little "give" on expansion energy applied to it.
Then again, if resistance to expansion is your thing, mason line, available at any box store, has by design the same attributes--and it comes in pretty fluorescent colors too (which at least serves a purpose: the ability to be seen.)
To point regarding the sarcasm: I believe the Silverstein ligature line, and many others like it, to certainly meet the requirements of a good ligature (e.g. reliable hold/screws etc.), but be absurdly overpriced for attributes that otherwise, for 99.99% of clarinet players (that's right, 1 in 10,000--maybe higher) what subtle benefits it might supply aren't worth how that money could be better spent (to improve your play or life.)
Yes, "your mileage might vary"--but cryogenics on the Silverstein metal--really?
We may differ on what our favorite ligature is, but we should not disagree (those being professionally endorsed notwithstanding) on what to look for in a favorite ligature.
Our favorite ligature is reliable, and is the one that lets us play our best, at a price that doesn't take our money away from other expenditures that can better improve our play (or lives), like good teachers, etude books, metronomes, or even the babysitter that affords us practice time, or the extra time we get to practice not having to take an extra shift at work to pay for the "Silverstein."
For the vast majority of us, here it is:
http://shop.weinermusic.com/STANDARD-Bb-CLARINET-LIGATURE/productinfo/LK1N/
Ain't she a beauty (no preference or discrimination towards Weiner Music, a very reputable firm IMHO, intended).
===
Finally, in the sake of full disclosure, I don't play this lig. In fact I play a name brand one: a Vandoren M/O.....but only because its double threaded screws allow me the ease of getting reeds (something that matters a whole lot) I'm adjusting on and off the mouthpiece quickly.
What others think their ligatures does for play confuses me given Drucker's use of the same no-name lig for years, despite his willingness to try new things (enormous collection of mouthpieces), ability to afford them, the genius to benefit from true subtle lig. improvements, and the fact that manufacturers would not only supply him with such product for free, but pay him to use it.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-02-03 02:37
Mr. Russianoff--may you rest in peace, that last post was for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QP9HXSFOfk
Press him on ligature talk--Sarah--no offense intended by your question--and he'd make you play something from an etude book at 120--which you'd (anyone would) screw up--whereafter he'd ask you what the heck role your ligature played in you not getting that right (or getting that right if you did play it flawlessly.)
You'd then get a lecture about how whether you thought it was Stanley's [Drucker] ligature that made him play that passage right, followed by his telling you, in a reassuring way, that if something was important for you to know, that he'd tell it to you, and that what was important was the repetition of the exercises he gave you, with the metronome on, and you playing to it.
Kal Opperman, if pressing him on this debate, I suspect would have simply said, "get out."
....nothing but admiration meant for either of these great teachers.
Post Edited (2016-02-03 02:39)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-02-03 04:20
I've played an array of them, metal, string, leather, Silversteins...
I always come back to an old Rovner Eddie Daniels model. I find it the most comfortable. A couple of years back I bought a 'Versa' which is supposedly the replacement/continuation of the Daniels line, but the material on the Versa was markedly thinner, the design had slight changes, and it just didn't work as well for me.
The ones I use work so well for me that I stopped trying other ligs--I think the sooner you can make a decision as to what works for you and move on, the better. And that pretty much goes for all equipment--know what you want, find it, then get off the merry-go-round and work as hard as you can.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-02-03 05:32
I use Bonade nickel ligatures, regular and inverted. Currently I prefer the inverted but prefer the feel of these ligatures.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-02-03 08:43
Currently using a silver plated Vandoren Optimum with the twin rail plate. It sounds and responds wonderfully with most any reed, stays exactly where I position it, and isn't fiddly to use. The best ligature I've ever used, I don't worry about finding something better.
Before that, it was an inverted Bonade. Tone and response are the equal of the superb Optimum, but my properly-adjusted Bonade pops out of position too easily if I have to rotate or remove the mouthpiece. Since I put a lot of moisture into a horn and must swab out my instrument once or twice during rehearsals, that's a real deal-breaker. If it would just stay put, I'd have stuck with it as my main lig.
Still, I stash the Bonade Inverted with my backup instrument. When properly adjusted, they certainly play as well as the Optimum.
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Author: Something Music
Date: 2016-02-03 08:52
@MarlboroughMan I'm in the same boat: the old leather eddie daniels ligatures are the best I've played. I know it's leather and will stretch/crack eventually, but until that happens it is the perfect blend between a soft cloth ligature and the firmness of a metal ligature.
I find the BG super revelation is a close second as it bears several similarities to the Eddie Daniels but still tends to be a little lighter in how it causes the reed to vibrate, though from an external standpoint there is a negligible tone change.
Does anyone know if there's any way to get the old Eddie Daniels ligatures? I really wish they didn't stop making them...
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Author: Napat Techa.
Date: 2016-02-03 09:09
For me ... Ishimori woodstone metal ligature gold plated [ nice bright and powerful sound and good altissimo ] and the solid silver one [ nice sound , rich , warm ..., but very expensive ].
...Sorry for my bad English...
Thank you !!!!!
Intermediate clarinetist . Buffet Crampon RC . Nick Solist M Mouthpiece. V12 3.5. Ishimori gold plated ligature and Rovner Versa ligature.
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2016-02-03 09:16
Vandoren Leather/Cuir with the 3 pressure plates.
Light Brown plate on my Eefer, Dark Brown plate on my Bb (God knows why I can hear any preference!)
V
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-03 09:23
Thanks everyone for sharing! It has been very interesting to read!
Silver sorcerer thanks for the pic. Do u just tie knots at both ends? I am keen to try it, for no other reason, that to say I have! Haha. As I am sure I don't actually play well enough for it to matter.
I can't scroll back but thanks for the laugh from the person who told me what two well known teachers would do! Actually that was my thought slightly! If I can play beautifully, it will be beautiful no mater which ligature, even if some are better than others!
When I went to the shop I had the choice of 2 ligatures! That was all! Until reading this book (thanks to whoever recommended it in wnother thread), that my eyes were opened to the options!
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-04 00:21
do you put the string ligature on and leave it there and just squeeze reeds in and out, or do u redo it every time you play?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-02-04 07:02
a good substitute for string ligature (that is also very cheap) is a Velcro ligature. You wrap it just a LITTLE snug on the mouthpiece without a reed, then out a reed on, and squeeze the prewrapped Velcro over the Reed and mouthpiece. I bought fifty Velcro cable ties on Amazon for about $8. I can use one or two as ligatures, and have 48 spares (although I actually so use them to tie cables too). I find the response is very similar to string, but ease of use is much better.
Even if you choose not to use this, it's handy to stuff in your gig bag in case someone loses or breaks a ligature on a gig. A Velcro cable tie will fit any mouthpiece, any instrument, and work more than well enough in an emergency.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-04 07:05
You wrap, and unwrap a reed with string.......every time.
There are a few products that function very much like string that are "snug fit." My favorite is the adjustable woven ligature by Vientos Bambu. It comes in lots of cool colors as well.
..................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2016-02-04 07:06)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-02-04 07:08
Eric said:
Quote:
I think the sooner you can make a decision as to what works for you and move on, the better. And that pretty much goes for all equipment--know what you want, find it, then get off the merry-go-round and work as hard as you can.
With the many posts on this board, this is some of the best advice out there!
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-02-04 07:20
Haha. Thanks ed. I am not at a level that should really matter! But hopefully will be soon. But honestly the string comment in the book just got me wondering, I had never even considered that the ligature would effect the sound!
Alexi, can u sent me a link for what u mean by velcro ties please?
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-02-04 08:25
Dan Sagi made some modifications to my BG Gold Liagure (with a silver screw) and the Vandoren Optimum. He added some cork to the part of the ligature that touches the reed. Amazing! I love them!
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2016-02-04 09:07
I have used double-stick tape and clear mouthpiece cushion material on both the Optimum "flat" plate and Ishimori ligatures either great success. This material seems to provide a bit of adaptation to the reed shape. However the double-stick does dampen the sound/response a bit.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2016-02-04 10:08
The Silverstein is the most amazing ligature I have ever played. It makes every type of reed play better.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-02-05 04:54
Last few weeks it is a black Luyben (with plain vanilla 5RV-lyre, Ridenour 67 mm "C bore" barrel and Legere Signature and Classic reeds.) Next week ... ? Who knows and who cares?
I think MPs with flat reed tables are less sensitive to ligatures ... MPs with French dip (reed flex both directions in the middle) are more open to experimentation. The Vandorens have a concavity in table, so a ligature that clamps the reed at two points, north and south, like the Luyben and some others, allow more reed wiggle in the middle and also wider excursions in reed vibration overall. Big playing difference in ligatures like the Rovner and the Luyben on French dip table MPs, IMHO.
My two cents ...
Tom
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2016-02-05 06:10
Most metal ligatures are not made correctly and are often cheap and nasty. I did have a Selmer metal ligature once that was correctly made. The only part of it that made contact with the reed were the two inner straight edges which were turned in very slightly. When you tightened up the two screws these edges 'bit' into the reed somewhat. After a while you could sometimes see two fine lines indented in the reed. Incorrectly made metal ligatures just wrap around the reed after the screws are tightened causing stress to the reed (my assumption)
I use a Rovner mostly because it's very convenient to use as it's very easy to set up having just one screw. As for different ligature causing different sound qualities ? There probably is but I've never considered it of much importance. For me the Ligature is just that thingy that keeps the reed on. Mouthpiece / Reed / & Embouchure are far more important. Well, up at that end of the Clarinet anyway.
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2016-02-09 22:02
Similar to the velcro ligature is a stiff rubber band made from cutting a cross section of a (very skinny) old bicycle tube. The only drawback is one has to be very careful when putting it on, one slip and the reed tip can be damaged. This takes time, and if the reed needs to be changed during a concert it might get a little dicey. This works best if you have an absolutely flat reed.
BTW: Old bicycle tubes are a great source of durable rubber bands for a variety of household tasks.
That being said, after experimenting with the band ligature, I ended up with the super Revelation. Of the handful that I tried it seemed to have the best tone and ease of play.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2016-02-10 00:03
Once I get a good reed, I epoxy it to the mouthpiece, and that holds the reed securely, even during those quick mouthpiece switches between contrabass and sopranino clarinets. Why pay some dumb company for a piece of flimsy metal or floppy fabric when you can glue the reed on for just pennies?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-02-10 06:28
A thumb. Nothing else comes close.
If you need to use both hands, then it's string. You have the choice between two equal solutions: strong kitchen twine, cost $0, and Silverstein at various prices approaching $200, depending on which meaningless "improvements" they make.
After string, a $5 Martin, bent so that no metal touches the edge of the reed. Plenty good for Kalmen Opperman and Richard Stoltzman.
After that, an inverted Bonade, jiggered so that the vertical rails lie flat on the reed and no metal touches the edge. Plenty good for Marcellus and Wright.
You play the clarinet, not the ligature.
Ken Shaw
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-02-10 07:02
Quote:
Press him on ligature talk--Sarah--no offense intended by your question--and he'd make you play something from an etude book at 120--which you'd (anyone would) screw up--whereafter he'd ask you what the heck role your ligature played in you not getting that right (or getting that right if you did play it flawlessly.) What a fantastic response! Wow. Makes me want to hit the practice room!!!
I'm thinking of doing the old, "pick on ligature out of a box, throw the rest away, and learn to play your clarinet" routine. It's time to simplify life.
Still rotating through three ligatures, but I really should cut it down to two.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-02-10 07:20
To my knowledge, Harold Wright used regular bonades (some of which were gold plated).
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Author: Reddeer
Date: 2016-02-10 10:08
Wrapping the reed carefully to allow it the correct environment to perform has always had its mystical charm with me. I used a rubber band once when my metal ligature broke: Not bad.
I now use the Silverstein. After Steve Silverstein and I recorded on the same Patricola Clarinet (2013) and I heard how freely he could play, I ran out and bought one. I did not tell him in case I did not like it. We played a gig together later that year and he saw me with it. He looked over and simply said "hey, you got one of those." I represented Silverstein Works at two International Clarinetfests (2014, 2015) thus far.
Try it out. They have several models now.
First recording with two clarinetist using the Silverstein ligature. Steven is on his Wurlitzer Boehm clarinet and I on a Selmer Centered Tone owned by the composer, Walt Skolnik:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbc1E4R8kKE
Hartshorn Classical Recordings
845-444-4455
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2016-02-10 10:33
Strangely that if I'm not playing a Bonade, my second choice would be the Rovner Versa-X. I took those staples out of the body and always keep the flaps over the cradle and it really sings.
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The Clarinet Pages
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