 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-01-10 17:24
Attachment: clarinet2-2.JPG (776k)
Attachment: clarinet3-2.JPG (260k)
Attachment: clarinet5-2.JPG (362k)
My main Arioso is off for service- can't wait to get it back! Meanwhile I'm playing my "Lyrique 2nd" with known intonation issues which seems to vary from day to day. So I'm still in the market to possibly improve my backup clarinet, but on a tiny tiny budget. And that had me bottom feeding on eBay, LOL.
So- yesterday I was the only bidder at $20 on a mystery no name clarinet, under $35 with shipping. It has the jump style trill keys, which limits the possibilities. And it looks composite or rubber, not plastic, though it could possibly be wood. Seller described as "student".
Last night I was studying clarinet keywork photos, and concluded it must be Noblet or Normandy. Stay tuned.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-01-10 17:30
I have a similar CSO in my "shouldn't have bought that" box. Mine is labelled Sonata, but it's only screen printed and is almost invisible. As a player mine is rubbish. You'd do a lot better looking for an old Vito.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-01-10 17:38
The other auctions I was watching were Vito Resotone 3's- a known quantity since I had one years ago. A good one (probably no repairs needed) got away after I bid about $46 with shipping. Others that probably need work might go less than that. Your CSO has jump trill keys?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2016-01-10 17:41
Why not have Mr. Ridenour correct the intonation issues on your "Lyrique 2nd"? That would be a far better instrument than any no name clarinet.
-Jdbassplayer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-01-10 17:50
I understand that financial constraints have geared you towards auction sights: often not the best places to buy musical instruments, particular clarinets: instruments prone to intonation issues--which I know you know.
But I also understand that not buying before play runs risk of you trying to address your intonation issues by buying another clarinet that may have intonation issues.
Post Edited (2016-01-10 18:20)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-01-10 18:09
"Your CSO has jump trill keys?"
Yes, when I saw it on EBay I thought it might be a Hanson, but it turned out not to be. I suspect that someone in China was trying to produce a cheap Hanson copy. They failed miserably, but I only paid a few bucks for it so it doesn't owe me a lot except the experience.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-01-10 23:25
I am very very happy with my Arioso, not likely once it's back I'll be playing anything else except on an occasional whim.
The Lyrique 2nd- a manufacturing sample with several known issues at a bargain price- was not represented as playing in tune, only that it was probably a better backup than some random Vito I told them I was planning to get off eBay. Certainly it has better keywork. As I described in another thread, the biggest issue it had initially was terribly sharp throat Bb, which I diagnosed as a too short register tube. The Ridenours sent me another, I swapped- problem solved! Then the biggest problem was forked low Eb (which is seldom good anyway), or maybe it was the E. Whichever it was, I improved with some Marine Goop in a tone hole. What's left seems more pervasive. After my Arioso is back I think I'll do a side by side test with a tuner and quantify any problems. It just does not feel right to ask those guys to try to fix it under the circumstances- I got what I bargained for or maybe more. (Edited to add- quick test with a tuner indicates Lyrique 2nd with my fixes does in fact have very good intonation, perhaps nearly as good as my newly serviced Arioso- sorry for suggesting otherwise.)
$35 for a nice looking clarinet or CSO perhaps was a better gamble than the same amount on $800 million powerball tickets. If it's playable at any level, great. If not- I might use it for some or all of...
1) Photography in places I would not take a good clarinet
--a- ocean surf
--b- ??? suggestions?
2) Photos or video of things I would not DO to a good clarinet
--a- things oozing out of the tone holes
--b- fireworks or flares
--c- clarinet "football"
--d- ??? suggestions?
3) Practice clarinet service- disassembly / assembly- pads etc
4) suggestions?
Tony- yours looks like mine? The Hansons I see online are very different.
Anyone else identify the keywork on my photos? And a related question is- if it were a major brand, what happened to the logos? Does anyone else here own an incognito clarinet that's really a Buffet, Selmer (that happens), Leblanc, or whatever?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-02-05 07:50)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: alanporter
Date: 2016-01-11 01:22
The keywork is similar to a Czech one I have, probably made by Amati. A side view of the register key would be helpful, as it is rather distinctive.
Alan
tiaroa@shaw.ca
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-01-11 03:20
"
Tony- yours looks like mine? The Hansons I see online are very different."
They are now. I was taken in by the name and some poor photography, Hanson used to make an instrument called "Sonata", and this one was advertised as being a Sonata. I bought it hoping to score a cheap Hanson.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-01-11 07:32
Attachment: clarinet3-2B.jpg (30k)
Attachment: clarinet3-2C.jpg (32k)
This little detail of the jump trill keys rules out old and new Ridenours, and all the Leblancs I looked at. But it matches some Normandies and some Noblets.
Then I tried to match up the C#/G# lever, kind of looked to me like some Noblet 40's.
Oh well- when it shows up next week I can examine thoroughly for labels, serial numbers.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2016-01-11 15:31
But the pad cups are Selmer/Buffet like - Leblanc had conical cups as opposed to the concave we see here.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-02-02 00:13
Time for an update.
The clarinet arrived in unplayable condition (no surprise). Bent keys (maybe fault of lousy case), pads falling out and damaged. No identifying marks or numbers on anything. I tried not to be disappointed, but it looked like maybe I got even less than I paid for.
I've replaced a few pads in the past and done other minor stuff- so here was a chance to get better at it. I replaced 2 or 3 pads. I straightened keys (were they soft?- maybe, but if so I guess that helped me). I bent and realigned ring keys, bridge mechanism, and crow's foot- how skillfully I don't know- but I made it better over a period of several days. I kept trying to play it.
Eventually I got some notes to play- there were obviously still leaks but at least I could begin to evaluate. And it was nice enough to make me keep working at it. Some pads I guess I reseated 3 or 4 times. The cork between the top and bottom sections has a gap- eventually I'll replace it but for now I put lots of cork grease to make sure it seals. I adjusted (shimmed with tape and/or bent keys) the crow's foot a dozen times.
A few days ago I got it playing pretty well. Top and bottom sections seal respectably though not great. But- immediately this clarinet beat out my other backup horn, which I have not picked up since. I've played it several hours now, over several days. Eventually I will take it to a real technician for service- I hope they don't refuse to work on it.
Intonation has some troubles, probably better than my other backup. (Edited to add- test with tuner indicates mystery clarinet intonation is far worse than Lyrique 2nd.) Eventually (after service on all horns) I will try precise tuning measurements as others have reported here. The keywork feels as nice as anything else I've played. In the past I rejected newly serviced and ready to play Vitos and student Yamahas for clunky keys, so I do have some standards. The nice feel was the biggest surprise. And it sounds fine to me.
My main Arioso clarinet will be back home newly serviced in a few days, can't wait, been without it for almost a month. And I will re-evaluate my old backup and this mystery clarinet against it, maybe then I won't be so generous.
So what is it? My best guess is Helmke. There are a couple of others on eBay now that look identical except they have the more standard conical key cups, and a couple of other differences. And they have the same stinky cases! I read reports that Helmke ("by German Engineering" LOL) produced many with no name- like mine. I also read glowing reports on Helmke saxophones, and other reports of fraudulent good reports on them, ugh. It all kind of makes sense for a Chinese product with perhaps decent basic design and variable or just bad production quality. This clarinet seems to have been played a lot (very worn noname mouthpiece) but perhaps was never in good shape, that would be sad.
Jury is still out, but I think this will be a serviceable backup for me. And the other backup?... who knows.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-02-05 07:52)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-02 03:18
The Taiwanese made Sapphire/Trevor James (or James&Young as they were stamped)/etc. clarinets from the mid '80s onwards had this same style trill key arrangement. The one in the photo has the plastic thumbrest that's also seen on early Buffet Elites and early '90s Buffet B12s.
Sapphires had a gloss finish and the James&Young ones had a brushed finish, but were definitely made from ABS.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-02-02 05:24
Attachment: Helmke1.jpg (512k)
Attachment: Helmke2.jpg (163k)
Attachment: Helmke3.JPG (310k)
Attachment: Helmke4.jpg (344k)
Chris- my mystery clarinet is definitely hard rubber.
Here are some eBxx Helmke images. If mine is Helmke, I wonder whether it's newer or older than these. I suspect mine is older.
I confess- I like the looks of that alto sax. Though I would not have had the nerve to take it to junior high band. Or maybe I would.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-02-02 05:27)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-02-05 08:14
My newly serviced Arioso arrived back home yesterday- wow have I missed it. And I'm sure it's playing much nicer than before.
The Arioso (= Lyrique 576BC) plays very nicely in tune. This evening I compared on a tuner with the Lyrique 2nd and the mystery (Helmke?) clarinets. And I've updated a couple of my entries above accordingly. The Lyrique 2nd, with my register tube swap and tone hole adjustment, is very nearly as good as the Arioso. The mystery clarinet is pretty bad by comparison.
I love my Arioso and will continue playing it. And the Lyrique 2nd should be a good backup for it, as I had planned. But I don't understand why- when it became primary for a few weeks- I began liking it less and less. Perhaps there is something fishy about the playing characteristics other than tuning. (It is a 2nd because the bore dia is incorrect in at least a place or 2- along with other issues.) I think I'll have it serviced- maybe something is out of whack.
I am also mystified why I liked the playing characteristics of the mystery horn better than the Lyrique 2nd- it was no contest. Even though mystery horn was definitely still in need of pad and key service (I'm no tech). Now I really want to know the bore profiles of all 3 horns, and that means I need to buy a telescoping gage set for $15 on eBxx. And then (unless all 3 bores are basically identical), I'll be trying to understand how different profiles affect play. Of course I'll also have to also qualitatively compare tone hole diameters, undercutting, and such.
Mystery horn is in a better case I picked up for $15, and who knows- maybe I can correct the worst tuning issues one day.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-02-05 19:44)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2016-02-12 02:00
A couple of days later, my newly serviced Arioso developed a problem which I at first attributed to the reeds I'm still evaluating and adjusting- instability in upper clarion and general playing difficulty in upper chalumeau. It got worse and worse, forked Bb5 ![[Bb5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/bb5.gif) just about wouldn't play, and forked Eb4 ![[Eb4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/eb4.gif) sounded terrible. But pretty quickly I diagnosed that the LH ring key pad was not fully closing through the bridge action. (I am a very careful clarinet assembler and player. No way I caused this, other than by normal play.) I was able to correct with a couple of layers of tape on the lower bridge face, whatever you call it. And the Arioso was back in business. A couple of things here. 1) Just because a horn is newly serviced doesn't mean it's perfect. Just because it was good yesterday doesn't mean it's good today. We all have to be diligent to catch problems, and able to correct easy things (or have a good tech at our beck and call). 2) As others have mentioned here, the bridge and ring keys are a big deal, perhaps nearly as important as the crows foot.
So then I checked the bridge action on the Lyrique 2nd. What do you know, THAT one didn't close very well either- wasn't terrible, but it needed help. Perhaps that's why I wasn't liking the feel of that horn. Now it's playing quite nicely. I plan to continue alternating frequently between Arioso and L2, and either I will become completely comfortable with L2 as a backup when needed, or I'll prove I need to upgrade it. Any answer is an answer.
The mystery (Helmke?) clarinet's bridge and ring keys were fine, I'd already worked with them as I got this horn playable. I compared pad and key heights to my Arioso and added cork and bent a couple of keys, several were way off. And that markedly improved the tuning of a range of notes. Overall it is pretty nice. But it is not an Arioso or a Lyrique. Here's a sample from yesterday- I'm able to lip into tune mostly, but it's more work than with the other 2 clarinets. http://www.FLmemories.com/C/MDemo160211.mp3- or if you prefer it "dry"- http://www.FLmemories.com/C/MDemo160211b.mp3. I added more padding to the cheap case it came in, and I will put it back up on eBxx- I will not feel bad for whoever buys it. (Edited to add- not selling for now- saving for a rainy day or strange photo shoot.) And I learned a few things.
This perhaps belongs in a new thread, but I also got some gages and did a few bore measurements of all 3 horns. And learned nothing conclusive, seems they are all very similar. Arioso (claimed to be = Lyrique 576BC) top of top section 14.80 mm, bottom of top 14.53, Lyrique 2nd 14.79-14.85, Mystery (Helmke?) 14.77-14.75. I have 3 barrels that came with Arioso or Lyrique 2nd- 64mm "A" 14.75-14.81, 64mm "B" 14.71-14.73, 65mm 14.76-14.79. The barrel with the mystery clarinet is 62mm 14.83-14.92. I am not confident enough in these measurements to be sure what is supposed to be cylindrical and what is deliberately tapered, except for the Arioso top section. Maybe I will explore further, and/or some of you can explain some of this where I can understand it.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2016-02-14 01:15)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
