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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-11-21 06:51
I've been working on single tonguing. How fast is "good", i.e., how many beats per minute playing lengthy stretches of 16ths? What do good players achieve?
The staccato section of the Nielsen is 32nds @ 72 bpm, which would be 16ths @ 144. Recordings by Drucker, Frost, Bliss, and others come close to that.
At what point would one begin to devote time to multi-tonguing? If one could handle 16ths @ 144 single tonguing, what pieces require more speed, possibly necessitating multi-tonguing?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-11-21 09:19
I think 132 is a good benchmark to reach. Nielson is a killer piece. Few players can hit that 144 mark unless you double tongue, which is good to know how to do if you can. Triplets aren't easy to play at 144 for alot of players. Slightly softer reeds and sometimes longer facings on mouthpieces can often help speed up your tonguing technique.
When practicing start with an open G and practice touching the reed as lightly as possible. Using a metronome may help a lot. Who knows, with practice you may be one of these players that can reach that 144 mark. Add other note slowly, like a few notes a week. Then of course add scales after about a month. It takes time to train and control one of the strongest muscles in the body to lightly touch the reed.
The tongue is a very strong muscle so you have to train it. Some players with fast tonguing use the flat part of their tongue, not the tip. It makes sense because you can control the amount of pressure.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-21 14:43
I disagree over the idea of control. The smallest surface area that has contact with the reed would naturally allow MORE control......that would be the tip.
I struggle with the physiology of tonguing and how to describe parameters. For me I find the speed answer related to the fact that there are "fast twitch" muscles and "slow twitch" muscles. You find more reference to this in sports where great athletes are "gifted" with more "fast twitch" muscles in their legs if they are runners for instance.
The only way to know your speed is to see where it tops out. Robert Spring doesn't seem to have a speed limit, but I top out around 120 (clear and accurate over time). So double and triple tonguing techniques are pretty important to learn for a lot of us.
Check out Michael Rusinek:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRgKs5t86A
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-11-21 17:36
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I disagree over the idea of control. The smallest surface
> area that has contact with the reed would naturally allow MORE
> control......that would be the tip.
>
>
Bob didn't say using the flat part of the tongue is necessary - only that some players gain speed that way. I'll throw in yet a perhaps more generalized point of view.
I don't have a fast tongue, so I won't try to describe a way to develop one. But it has always seemed to me that the important thing isn't so much where on your tongue you contact the reed as what position your tongue is in, whether or not its position allows it maximal freedom of movement. Everyone's tongue, like every other part of the human side of the system, is different. If you need to tense up your tongue in order to aim it so the tip touches the tip of the reed, it seems to me potentially self-defeating.
That said, I think the quality of a player's staccato may well be affected by what part of the tongue touches the reed, and tip-to-tip may well, I think, have an advantage in terms of precision and clarity at speeds that are more reasonable. So it may be a matter for some players of slightly different approaches, one if speed is the main consideration and another for all-around general use.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-11-26 08:15
I'm intending to be using tip to tip, but noticing some variations (which I'm trying to remove.) Today I'm doing 5 good beats of 16ths @120 bpm, 2 beats @ 135, 1 @ 145. I do repeated notes on every note in every register, changing registers frequently. Then I work scales, as many beats as I can at various speeds. Which points out to me that my fingers aren't perfectly even in time either, i.e., a mistake in a staccato scale is often due the fingers being sloppy instead of the tongue - another sparkling opportunity for improvement (bleah.)
Another thing I'm trying to do is practice both legato tonguing and staccato or staccatissimo tonguing at any speed I'm able to. It's all about control.
I also try to practice a couple staccato studies each day. There's a few in Langenus 3, and a several in Jettel's Accomplished series. There's also Jettel's concert etude on the Mendelssohn Scherzo. And the Nielsen passage, and well-known excerpts, etc.
Together, the above can consume an hour or more each session.
I noticed that I tend to change tongue position a little on some notes. Until I started this work I hadn't noticed I was doing it. That's bad in fast staccato transitions, because the tongue motion, not surprisingly, also changes a little, and in the not so smooth and fast direction. And then you've fallen behind, and woe betide. So I work all the different notes, jumping between registers etc, to try and stop this.
It's getting noticeably better, but I'm still not "aware" enough of my tongue. Sometimes it acts slow and clumsy, and sometimes it works wickedly. This may be an internal rhythm thing, because sometimes also the same metronome speed sounds really fast, and sometimes easy slow. (I'm assuming it's me, not the metronome doing this.)
I bet I can reach the marked tempo for the Nielsen passage . . . in the fullness of time . . . Speaking of the Nielsen, I suspect that the composer put 72 bpm on that staccato 32nd passage because he assumed it was the fastest he could get from the instrument. IMHO, if someone can articulate it faster by multi-tonguing or great genetics, then they should do so. I think the speed is part of the intended impact of that section: staccato, loud and fast.
But I'm a suspect judge in this, because I don't really like the Nielsen clarinet concerto as music. Nielsen's flute concerto, fine. His symphonies, great. Piano music, mostly fine, some awesomely great. Chamber music, mostly fine or great. The violin concerto I can never manage to keep listening to all the way through: either I'm too insensitive or it's too dull. The clarinet concerto just seems, hmm, too manic, too jumpy and disorganized; it's irritating, like Nielsen tried to do something with great energy, similar maybe to his 4th or 5th Symphony, but misfired. Sorry to be negative.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-26 08:27
Here is something that worked as insight into the Nielsen Concerto for me only just recently.
Listen to the quintet ! This piece was written for the same musicians for whom he was to write all five concertos (only got to two). Nielsen represented the personalities of each musician with the styles they use in the quintet. It is said that the clarinet player in the group was an argumentative sort of fellow. In the quintet, you hear the clarinet part "quarreling" with the bassoon.
So by extension, the concerto is a pure representation of an angry, angst ridden personality filled with inner tensions. By contrast the flute concerto is a much calmer, happier work.
That said, I'm with you, the Nielsen Clarinet Concerto is just too frenetic for my tastes.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-11-26 19:37
Paul Aviles wrote:
> By contrast the flute concerto is a much calmer, happier work.
>
> That said, I'm with you, the Nielsen Clarinet Concerto is just
> too frenetic for my tastes.
>
Maybe that's because someone else - a flutist - has to play the flute concerto. :-)
Although, as I remember, the 1st clarinet part to the flute concerto is pretty showy as well. Maybe more of his clarinetist's querulous, maybe competitive side showing up?
Karl
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Author: Stingerbee5000
Date: 2015-11-27 11:03
I have a question sort of referenced above but I'd like a clearer answer if possible.
Have you ever seen a physical limit on how quickly a person can tongue? Ie, a naturally 'slow' tongue that hits a lower speed barrier. Is there any way to get over this or will I have to learn to double tongue?
I've tried for years to bump up my tempo but the highest I could ever manage was I think 16ths at 110. I just can't seem to get over 110, which falls short of the 132 noted above.
I'm not really a 'speed demon' type player but it is very frustrating when playing with the band when I can't keep up at something like 115 or 120.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2015-11-27 14:17
To understand the Nielsen Clarinet Concerto one must understand the relationship Nielsen had with Aage Oxenvand and one must also understand Aage's temperament. I'm giving two performances of this in the coming weeks and having not played it for 10 plus years it's been a revelation coming back to it. The work is finely crafted and in my humble opinion one of his best. He was exploring new styles but like other great composers that evolved he died before it fully took root.
The section in question is spurious in the tempo. The actual manuscript doesn't list a metronome mark other that 32nd=16th (from the previous 16ths) so it's open to interpretation. Nielsen worked with Aage Oxenvand throughout the composition process and the soloist had a huge involvement in the run up to the premier. For the first print the conductor Emil Telmanyi of the premier had a hand in the editing and as a result we got the results of the first few performances between the conductor and soloist.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-11-27 19:20
I personally am not too worried about where the reed is touching your tongue. I know the standard that is taught tends to be the tip of the tongue to the tip of the reed, but I've heard some amazing anchor tonguers and everything inbetween.
I think the MAIN focus should be making sure that you are touching the tip of the REED with a CONSISTENT part of the tongue. Myself, I prefer just behind the tip of the tongue.
Some things to keep in mind. Keep a strong and constant airstream. It helps. Work SLOWLY on tonguing so as to learn CONTROL over your tongue. It's a large muscle that moves seemingly all as one, so you want to be able to control it from moving too far away from the reed, and not putting more pressure than is necessary to stop the reed from vibrating. Too far away and too much pressure is just wasted effort.
If you can sustain sixteenths above 120, you're probably in very good shape and that's a good speed to have. Anything past that for SUSTAINED 16ths is just a bonus. And when working on double tonguing, the suggestion above of a longer lay and lighter reed is very good as it just helps out with speed of getting that reed to vibrate. Also, practice very slowly with scales and notes all on the "Ga" syllable of the "Da Ga, Da Ga" double tonguing technique. When you can solidify a good and consistent "Ga", it makes putting the two together much easier.
Alexi <- who still needs to work on double tonguing himself, but that's next year's project. This year I'm shoring up my sax fundamentals to have a stronger base to build off of next year as well.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-11-28 14:05
I know that someone I study with over the summer said that quarter notes 120 playing sixteenths chromatically is very good. My teacher I study during school said that that would probably translate faster, so you could try that. I also know that Sean Osborn said that 144 is the minimum for a professional. My tonguing tends to be better than people the same age group as me. On a good day I could probably tongue 144, but on a usual day maybe around... 130? Depends I haven't benched myself in quite awhile.
I'm pretty good at articulating so that every note is heard, but for long legato tonguing I'm not... ideal, so Mozart can be quite a challenge for me, but Mozart is challenging for everybody, haha!
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2015-11-28 17:14
144 for a professional!? Haha, don't believe everything some people say. Remember that tonguing is only one small part of playing the clarinet and really has nothing to do with actually being a musician.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-11-28 21:04
Thank you all for the responses.
Peter, I was pleased to hear that Nielsen did not specify tempo on that staccato passage. The impression one want's to create there should not depend on "72 bpm" but on what came before and what comes after. It sounds like the mark might even be partly descriptive (of what was done) as well as prescriptive (of what "should" be done.) It's worth my further reflection.
I'm still going to try to reach single-tongued sustained 16ths at 144bpm. that goal has little to do with my performing anything in the real world. I think I can do it, and it would be useful for some things. If I reach that speed (and maintain the ability) then I might work on multi-tonguing, though there doesn't seem to be clarinet music requiring higher speeds, just some vague opportunities for, hmm, show.
Paul, thank you for the reference about the quintet - one of my favorite Nielsen works. I'll relisten to it with what you said in mind.
Alexi, I agree it's all about CONTROL. I'm translating that to include ideas such as: don't change your tongue arch while tonguing. Don't reposition your jaw, the tongue is connected. Don't move your lips or embouchure. Etc. Don't even change your posture. It's actually difficult to NOT do things like those.
I'm noticing that when I'm trying to sustain repeated notes on a pitch, the failure point seems associated with some kind of movement of something, i.e., loss of control. That in turn seems associated with trying *harder* as the sequence proceeds. So, my thought is to take the ideal position of everything from long tone practice, with the tongue as close to the reed as possible without stopping the vibration, and maintain it all while articulating: not rigidly, not effortfully, but clearly and easily and calmly and perceptively.
I'll add that the tongue action is very light, barely brushing the reed. The reed is just slightly felt by the tongue. Further, and this may be an error in my perception, it feels like just the tip of the tongue, or the most forward section, is making that tiny movement, and most of the tongue feels stationary - certainly the part going back into the throat is. So the voicing is stable while the articulation varies. Two things going on.
Stingerbee, if, like me, you don't have a teacher to guide you, all I can add is to do what I am doing. Practice single tonguing every day with a metronome. Start with a speed you can sustain 16ths at as long as you want, then increase the speed. I use 5 bpm increments. At each speed, work on increasing how many consecutive beats of 16ths you can play. Start with repeated notes on single pitches - all of them. Work up/down by half steps, octaves, 12ths, registers, whatever, and try to keep as much of what you do consistent as possible (a lot like long tones.) Figure out what is limiting you, and focus on improving one factor at a time. Switch between legato and staccato articulation (or even finer degrees). Do scales and patterns all single-tongued. Practice music requiring fast articulation.
Again, this can take an hour or more a day. The work is staying fresh for me for now because a) I'm still at the stage of getting measurably better every day, and b) the work somewhat carries over into other aspects of tone production, a bonus.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-29 08:05
To answer "Stingerbee5000" directly, I believe there is a limit for individuals. Some players are incredibly fast single tonguers but there are many of us who have real world limits. Sure you can improve to a degree with techniques and practice but YOU will know where you top out.
If you have a "light" set-up, doubling tonguing should be an easy technique to add to your repertoire.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2015-11-29 16:34
Reading this thread reminds me I'm due to play the Prokofiev classical symphony soon. The finale is marked at a speed of 152, but it seems like most recordings these days end up between 160 and 180. You have to be able to produce 6 repetitions of a single note at that speed (with the scoring cleverly alternating bars between 1st and 2nd). Does anyone think that's possible without double tonguing?
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-01-04 07:39
Since 11/26 my routine has shown some progress. My top speed for one quad (4 16ths) is now 155 bpm. That will surely increase. I bet the Prokofiev passage John mentioned is feasible with good single tonguing, and I'm going to include it as a goal.
Today I could just make 2 groups of four 16ths (quads) at 145 bpm; it wasn't consistent. But 2 quads @ 140 was better. I manage 3 quads @ 130, but not on any/all notes. At 120 easy quads can run 5-8 beats, it still varies.
All the above marks come after a fairly lengthy process of warming up the tongue. It ends up feeling like there's no looseness in any part of the tongue, but also no rigidity. The action is so light it feels effortless, though that's misleading! Effortless but exact. The feeling of tongue on reed is almost like a buzz. The focus is definitely on the tip of the tongue, but there can't be any slop anywhere in the muscle.
At any speed, the point where a tonguing sequence breaks down seems associated with changing something, particularly the tongue position, but also the jaw position or almost anything else. When I finally break through to adding a quad at some speed, it's almost like I was able to relax enough to let it happen, i.e., to not accidentally change something unnecessarily. This has to do with control.
Incidentally, I seem to get going sooner starting at the higher speeds and working down. At higher speeds the tongue motion has to be correct or you get nothing, so it helps me to retrieve the muscle memory faster than if I start at the slower speeds and work up.
Sigh. Long way to go. Maybe a year or more to get where I want, if I can. Hopefully these notes will be useful to others.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-01-04 10:04
I personally think you/we should learn to double tongue if you want to hit anything over the 132 mark. Most players can't reach speeds over that, so double tonguing seems perhaps slightly realistic if you want to attempt to hit 160 or come close to this mark. Off hand I can't think of a single person that can hit 180, but there probably is some genius or geniuses that can.
It is for sure cool not to set limits, therefore this goal will sometime be met by many, not just a few. As composers challenge players limits we will surely see the players accept and reach new goals.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-01-04 18:58
Hi Bob - After watching some YouTube tutorials, I started including 5-10 minutes of daily double tongue practice a while back. That's progressed from ugly floundering to awkward stumbling, apparently improving.
I'll keep after the single speed until returns diminish past worthiness, and then switch to maintenance. It would be nice to reach the (possibly spurious) marking in the Nielsen of extended 32nds @72, which (I think) some players (better than I) single tongue.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2016-01-05 02:06
Philip,
Take it slow and the Nielsen will be easy in no time. Actually the articulation is not so much the issue but the pattern of notes. My live recording with a non-pro orchestra is on Sound Cloud if you're interested.
Best of luck
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-01-05 07:11
Hello, Peter. Thank you for the encouragement. I enjoyed your recording on Sound Cloud, a robust rendition with fire and tenderness and longing. You certainly dive into the technical sections with gusto - I like the feel of that. A good orchestra for "non-pro", though perhaps I uttered a harsh word or two in the moment of listening. In the end I feel perhaps I understand the piece a bit better; maybe it can add up to something that fits together in a satisfactory way, as opposed to the rather schizophrenic impression one sometimes receives. It must be tricky to manage, musically and technically; I suspect the piece is actually harder than it sounds.
Today I tested my upper limit for one quad, and achieved 165, albeit only about one clear try in every 10. But it's there to nail down. Three quads @135, far from consistent as yet. One chromatic octave up & down in 16ths @120.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-01-06 11:23
Philip, sounds like you are on your way to a very good start.
Can I suggest playing one note at a time for a bit. Such as open G. Use the metronome and start slowly watching the placement of your tongue as it hit the reed and comes off of the reed. We are looking for touching the reed as light as possible. Build the speed up; still using open G or F whatever note you wish. After a week, or after you've reached a good speed as talked about already, try 2 notes. Then C, D, E, F, G, F, E, D, C. over and over as 16th notes. I'd say to give yourself a month. You'd be amazed at how well you've gotten the speed under control. You will of course be tempted to try other notes. Playing just these few note will drive you nuts. So try different notes, but remember to go back to the basics if that feeling leaves the instrument.
Glad you are having fun! It's actually kind of fun learning the art of articulation, because we all aren't good at it. Some lucky people have this natural talent, but most of us have to practice a lot, maybe years to get the speeds up and able to play in 5 sharps and flats!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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