 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: EBC
Date: 2015-11-19 20:10
Hello all,
I hope to get some leads on solutions to a very specific intonation problem.
I currently play an R13 Prestige B-flat clarinet and Tosca A clarinet, with stock barrels and bells. Nothing unusual there. Now, the problem comes in with my mouthpiece. I play a PlayEasy B2, made my Nick Kuckmeier in Austria. After years and years of slaving away in the practice room, I believe I can say that, with this setup, the sound in my ear is essentially the sound I produce. (There's always that last one percent, of course...) Unfortunately, the unique construction of this mouthpiece seems to present a number of intonation problems to which there are no obvious solutions. Specifically, while a stock R13 bore instrument with almost any mouthpiece (Vandoren, D'Addario, custom Zinner blank constructions, you name it) would typically play slightly flat in the left-hand chalumeau notes, and slightly sharp in their respective twelfths, my setup gives me the opposite problem. My twelfths are small, rather than wide. Furthermore, they are VERY small; the discrepancy is about 15 cents without adjustment.
Now, I wanted to know whether anyone on the BBoard has had any experience with such a problem, and what solutions they found. I'd be most interested in whether anyone knows of any barrel makers who could address it. For example, if the Moennig reverse cone taper was designed to compress the typical twelfth spread on R13 bore instruments played with large-bore mouthpieces, it seems not unlikely a barrel could be designed to do precisely the opposite. I'm hoping that something of this nature combined with some modification to my register tubes could do the trick.
Thanks,
Eric
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2015-11-19 20:39
Try a harder reed - I've found similar problems in the past and this has made a difference (I play a solist m with v12 3.5+)
I (and anectdotally others) have found that the quality control has dipped, but I think there are still good ones. They claim that the mouthpieces are 'optimized' for certain reeds, and I wonder if they are a bit inflexible with what you can use successfully on them (unlike perhaps a vandoren mouthpiece)
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2015-11-19 20:41
I didn't really like the playeasys that I tried, but that could be quality control. Felt like they needed a harder reed than the solist model
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2015-11-19 23:19
Since you are close to New York I would suggest contacting Guy Chadash (but have your checkbook handy...). He fixed a similar problem a colleague of mine had.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-20 08:20
My guess is that there is no fix. You have a mouthpiece playing far too sharp for the acoustic of the horn. You cannot adjust internal pitch issues that are that wide caused by the sound generator. The solution is to use another sound generator (a compatible mouthpiece).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2015-11-20 08:37
With that mouthpiece alone, what pitch do you get? I wonder if embouchure could be an issue.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-11-20 18:28
I tend to agree with Paul. I doubt if any barrel will solve this problem. I'd suggest you contact Morrie Backun and talk to him if he knows of a solution. He's a great clarinet and barrel maker. I'd be reluctant to go to Chadash, especially if you're a student, in which case I'd suggest you bring a strong willed teacher with you. Be careful of any suggestions of doing work on the bores of your clarinet.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2015-11-22 00:32
A few ideas (which you've probably thought of or done so already):
1. Go try Innoledy's entire stock of Playeasy B2s and see if there are any that are more in tune.
2. Get in touch with someone who plays on a Playeasy (like Anthony McGill, though I'm not sure if he still plays on one) and ask them how they've dealt with the intonation problems.
3. Beg your teacher to let you try his hoard of barrels...
4. Go talk to Guy Chadash or some other barrel maker (John Weir in Toronto makes great barrels - just bought one myself).
5. Give up. I recently realized that I couldn't handle the the intonation on my B2 and ended up switching to a Vandoren M30D (our friend Nick also made the exact same switch btw). I don't regret it!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2015-11-22 01:36
"For example, if the Moennig reverse cone taper was designed to compress the typical twelfth spread on R13 bore instruments played with large-bore mouthpieces, it seems not unlikely a barrel could be designed to do precisely the opposite. "
It doesn't work this way. I don't know why- I also have "tapered" barrels (the opposite of Moennig) but they don't widen the 12ths.
Your mouthpiece is almost certainly the problem. I also had problems with the intonation of a playeasy that I bought. I would go with with all of S.H.J.s suggestions, except no. 4. I highly doubt that a new barrel will solve this. Either find a B2 that plays better in tune, or change to another mouthpiece.
I must say that, with all the marketing hype around computer analysis etc. by playnick, it is clear that they have a large variability from mouthpiece to mouthpiece. This is to be expected in all mouthpieces, even if Kuckmeier would have you believe otherwise. However, the tuning problems are inexcusable.
It doesn't matter how nice you think you sound. If you're playing out of tune, nobody will appreciate it!
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Author: EBC
Date: 2015-11-22 02:24
Thanks to all for the suggestions.
To Alexis: I typically play 3.5 Rue Lepic reeds, but I do have some harder 3.5+ reeds that I've been breaking in for another mouthpiece that I'll try. I'll let you know how it goes!
To rmk54 and Ed: I do appreciate the Chadash suggestion, but, frankly, I've just heard too many negative reviews of his work and general attitude from both teachers and my fellow students to really want to contact him. There are certainly several qualified voicing specialists in the NYC area I would see before him, and, in fact, I already have an appointment with one of them scheduled for a few weeks from now.
To Paul: This is my suspicion as well, but I do feel, given how much I enjoy the thing, that I should investigate every option within reason before rejecting it. Hence my post here.
To my good friend SHJ: 1. Good idea, but done, to no avail. 2. Good idea, will investigate. 3. Good idea, and done. You'll see one of them soon, actually... 4. Currently talking to Backun, but I might contact others if that doesn't work out. 5. I wish I could, my friend, I wish I could...
To Liquorice: Thanks for your insight. And regarding all the PlayNick "hype"... believe me, I don't buy into a word. They are, of course, extremely variable. Like every mouthpiece maker has always been. I just happen to occasionally like the end result, minus considerable reservations when it comes to intonation.
Any further suggestions are welcome!
Thanks again,
Eric
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Author: JKL
Date: 2015-11-22 22:24
I am a German player, playing on Wurlitzer Oehler system clarinets, normally with German Viotto Mouthpieces. I have both a Solist M and a PlayEasy B2 (the models which match the German system) with the same tendencies described by Eric. The twelfths are MUCH smaller than with my Viotto mouthpieces. The higher clarion notes are significantly flat, and I cannot play the higher clarion notes freely, but have to use much more pressure with the feeling to "plug" these notes. So I believe that it is not a problem of this particular mouthpiece but a general tendency. This is strange - there must be players who are able to manage this, otherwise they wouldn't sell these mouthpieces. Maybe it is not such a dramatic problem with German - in particular Wurlitzer - clarinets because for some players it can be a serious problem with these clarinets not to be sharp in the upper register.
JKL
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-23 03:50
Some posts above refer to the "hype" of the CNC age. I wanted to veer off the main topic to make sure that we are all aware of ESM Mouthpieces (Ernst Schreiber Michelstadt). These mouthpieces are SOOOOO consistent from one to the other that amongst the three that I own (all of one facing, the MCK-1) and the four others that I've tried - they ALL play EXACTLY the same.
The constancy from one to the other is so amazing that it is almost scary.
At least ESM can do it.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2015-11-23 14:36
I agree with JKL. In our band Wurlitzers, Leblancs and Buffets are being used. The intonation issues of L and B klarinets are comparable, having wider right hand and smaller left hand twelfths, the W's stand out for their opposite tendency. This is all manageable, but when tuning is critical the two 'acoustic families' are opposed.
It is to be expected that a mouthpiece 'correcting' the twelfths of a W will make the left hand twelfths on french style clarinets (too) small.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2015-11-23 15:35
The small twelfths in the left hand can be caused by a mouthpiece that has a smaller bore than the instrument has been designed for. Typically behaviour: throat register is very high, so you have to pull a lot.
Also the altissimo will be flat then. Reaming the bore may fix it but no guarantees given (there are more factors involved like chamber dimensions).
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Author: EBC
Date: 2015-12-02 00:23
Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions!
Quick update: a new barrel and a little work on register key venting has had quite an impact. My A is now quite good, though the B-flat is less so, and both could probably use more work. The search continues...
Eric
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Author: SHJ
Date: 2015-12-03 20:54
Just curious, what barrel ended up working for you?
Seok Hee
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Author: EBC
Date: 2015-12-04 00:19
To SHJ: Pascal Véraqin, Kingwood, 67 mm, bore type two. It's supposed to be similar to a Moennig taper, according to Pascal, but it seems to do something completely different to what a Moennig does, intonation-wise. As my wonderful teacher said recently: "Sometimes it takes an anomaly to solve an anomaly." Pretty much...
Eric
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Author: SHJ
Date: 2015-12-04 00:41
Hmm, good to know. I'll remember to inquire at Pascal's if I ever decide to switch back to my Playeasy...
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Author: EBC
Date: 2015-12-05 05:41
Update/clarification: This is mostly for SHJ's benefit, but I should say that the new barrel worked much better for my A than my B-flat. This likely has something to do with the difference between a Tosca A bore and an R-13 B-flat bore.
New leads: apparently people in the NYC area who play PlayEasy mouthpieces with Buffet clarinets have tended to find success with Schwenk and Seggelke French-bore barrels and Paulus and Schuler Zoom barrels. They're next on the list.
Eric
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