 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-10-01 04:37
I've had a recurring problem with missing the throat A key on my Selmer 10G A clarinet when I need to go to it in fast arpeggiated passage work. It doesn't happen all the time or even often, but it's an annoyance when it does happen. More accurately, my index finger reaches the key but doesn't actually move it. I can usually avoid the problem in the passages most prone to it when I'm thinking about it, but at the expense of rather heavier, over-deliberate finger action than I want to use.
I've been experimenting with slightly re-shaping the key by building up its lower side nearer my left index finger. Building it up with Blue-stik seems to improve things, but the stiff is squishy and doesn't hold its shape or position for long. I want to play with it a while longer before I try (or ask my repairman to try) actually moving the key by rotating it slightly, or building it up instead with solder or some other more permanent material. Has anyone found a material that can be shaped, stays in place and isn't sticky? I may try cork held on with shellac or hot glue, but is there a better way to experiment with the key shape and have it remain removable or workable?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-01 05:11
Don't use soft solder to build up the touchpiece due to the toxicity of the lead or other metals in the solder and it won't be easy to remove it all should you want to without wearing the plating to some degree.
There are UV setting resins available which should do the job of a semi-permanent solution - thoroughly degrease the surface of the key, then apply a thin base layer of resin and harden it with the supplied or bought UV LED. Then build up the layers and harden them in turn until you have the desired thickness and finish it by filing and sanding smooth.
Here's one such product:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTsfwL61CR8
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-10-01 06:01
Thanks, Chris. I wouldn't use solder myself - that's for a repair tech to do with silver solder once I confirm over some time that the idea works. But if the resin you're suggesting is permanent enough, nothing more might be needed if it solves the problem.
How does the resin come off if it turns out not to help (or makes things worse)? Do you just soften it with the UV light?
Karl
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-10-01 07:33
Ive used a material called Sugru for building up keys temporarily. See:
www.sugru.com
It's freely available on EBay.
Since its based on silicon sealer and corn starch I shouldn't think there would be any toxicity issues.
Tony F.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-10-01 08:35
I actually did exactly this "repair" for someone on a Selmer bass clarinet, where it was difficult for him to reach the throat A key.
I also used the meterials suggested already.
Something like Bondic is pretty fast but could be difficult to build exactly how you want since it's liquid. It's probably possible but could be a bit tricky.
I would definitely consider Sugru. I've used it a few times on instruments and I've used to completely change the grip shape on my camera. You can shape it while it's soft and I think it takes about a day to completely harden. Buy the smaller packages because once it's out of the package it will harden and you won't be able to reuse it. It's a bit like plasteline so you can shape it while it's "soft" but you can also cut and sand it after it hardens.
For that Selmer bass A key I actually used epoxy. I made an improvised jig to have teflon sheet wrap around to leave the shape I wanted. The epoxy stuck to the key but not the teflon so it ended very smooth and round. I'm supposed to have photos of this somewhere and I can look for them if you're interested.
I wouldn't use lead soft solder for the reasons Chris metnioned, but if I used solder it would be tin/silver soft solder without lead. I still probably not do it because it is not easy to get actual shapes with just solder. Shaping a metal part and then soldering or gluing it on could be a good option too.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-10-01 09:20
You can break a key with multiple bending, but that's unlikely. I've done my own repairs since about 1975 or so and you may want to try assorted sizes of cork. I get my stock of cork from J J Smith. Nice folks there. Buy the sheets that you might use to replace the corks on the joints. Then go to your local hardware store and buy some Contact Cement. Be careful here. Don't buy Rubber Cement. Cut a peace off using something sharp like a razor blade, very sharp scissors, and put the cement on both the key and the cork. Let the glue dry for 10 minutes or so before attaching the cork to the key. The cool part is you can sand it smaller or make it thicker by adding another layer of cork. Actually, you can probably buy everything from J J Smith and save yourself a lot of running around. Total cost would probably be under $15, enough cork for the rest of your life, the contact cement and a razor. Use about 600 grit sandpaper for a smooth finish.
Then you will have a pretty good idea of what the ideal position is for you. If you want to get fancy and have some fun, take the key off after you feel you have it about right and spray the cork silver. Tape the key first so you don't get over stray spray on the key that doesn't have cork on it. You'd be surprised how good it will look. Get the silver spray at an auto store, or you can actually use nail polish!
You could spray it gold, blue, red, whatever, and fellow clarinet players will surely wonder whats up with that!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-10-01 13:37
I have always had a bit of a hard time with my G#, but to some extend the A too.
I will start experimenting with adding material as well now, thanks for the inspiration!
Please share more info and images of your progress.
Regards
Peter
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-01 19:45
To remove the UV cured resin, you should be able to pick it off cleanly or apply some heat to help remove it. The UV light only cures the liquid resin and won't soften it again once it's hardened.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-10-01 20:47
<Cut a peace off using something sharp like a razor blade, very sharp scissors,>
The key word here is sharp. I was burned out by the Butte Fire in California, but I managed to get away with all the instruments and my repair kit. One clarinet I was overhauling was done except for the bell tenon cork. I had a rehearsal that evening and, after cutting an appropriate piece of cork, packed up my kit to go back into my gig bag. All I had left to do was bevel the end of the cork and I was ready to glue it on. Stupidly, rather than breaking out a new blade, I use the same one I had been using to trim key corks and such. That blade was no longer particularly sharp and, with all that was going on (evacuation, losing the house, etc.) I was exhausted. Rather than putting a bevel on the end of the cork strip, I managed to break it in half. Back to square one on the tenon cork. Sharp is definitely better.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-10-01 22:23
Bob Bernado,
You've got it exactly right. I watched my favorite tech make a change on the register key touch on my bass clarinet using cork and contact cement. Maybe about 30 minutes with the bulk being time to let the contact cement dry.
I sold the instrument since then but when I got another, I did exactly as he did (which was what you describe). No reason that the A or G# key could not be modified the same way.
The sharp razor blade is a must and I was able to use a very fine emery board (the one for nails) to so some shaping. Once you have the correct shape and size, maybe clear nail polish will work. My same tech builds side key extensions for saxophones out of fine wood scraps as well. But he is a real craftsman; I would not try it.
HRL
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-10-01 23:10
Hi, Bob. Nice to see you back.
I suggested in my original post that my first thought had been to use cork, but my real hesitation with it is that contact cement is a mess to remove if I don't find that the change helps. Hot glue and shellac used as adhesives both might have a tendency to let go under the pressure of my finger pressing on it in playing. Do you have a way of removing the contact cement cleanly from the touchpiece surface if necessary?
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-10-02 09:14
>> but my real hesitation with it is that contact cement is a mess to remove if I don't find that the change helps. <<
Contact cement is easy to remove with alcohol or lighter fluid. Put some on a paper towl or even ear bud and rub it off. It might take a few seconds or a little more than a few seconds.
The main reason I wouldn't use cork is mostly because cork feels worse touching it. After trying all the methods suggested here, I would rate cork as having the worst feel (I've tried other materials too and would still prefer one of the other methods).
>> If you decide to bend metal to adjust the position, I think it is a good idea to heat the metal before doing the bending. I have heard, perhaps it is just a rumor, that this helps prevent the key metal from breaking. It is probably not so simple as different alloys might have different properties when heated. I do this when I am straightening the bridge key tabs and other keys and so far none has broken yet doing it this way. I admit that it is a somewhat superstitious practice. <<
It's not a rumor and not superstitious, but it's also more specific than that.
Almost all clarinet keys are made of nickel silver, cupronikel or brass. All of these materials (and some others) become softer if heated to red hot (called annealing). The amount of heat required could damage the plating, but might not, it can vary (also depending on the heating method).
If you heat it to significantly lower temp than that then it's not doing anything really and you might as well not do it. With experience you develop a feel for how different metals bend and what could or couldn't break them, also depending on shape, thickness, etc.
I don't heat keys before relativley minor bends like what you described (bridge adjustment, adjustment to touchpieces, etc.) and have never had a key break. Same for others I know who also adjust keys all the time.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-02 15:12
I hear people banging on about 'heating the key up before bending it' - when pressed for how much heat, they think merely rubbing the key between your fingers to generate some warmth is enough. Not even warming the key up with a match, lighter or small gas torch is enough as that won't have any effect on the metal - only warming it up a bit, but not doing anything to soften the metal. You need to heat the key up to red/orange hot to soften it but that will destroy the key corks, the pads, the plating and the hard solder joints.
All woodwind keywork has already been softened during the time it was hard soldered, so it's already soft enough to bend at room temperature. It's not as though you're putting anything near right angle bends in the keywork, only a few degrees to make things more comfortable.
But if you're bending near key barrels, be careful as they may have dry solder joints where the key barrel is soldered into the key arm and the key can come away or break off at that point.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-10-02 17:21
Chris has already stated it better than I could, but personally I have never heated a key unless I wanted to hard-solder or braze it, keys can safely be bent cold as long as you use common sense and use several pairs of soft-jaw pliers. Make sure that you don't put excessive load on posts or soldered joints, keep away from pads and ensure that the work is supported and it will work out OK. I use pliers with a smooth brass lining in the jaws. I got them from (I think) Music Medic and they don't mark the keys in any way.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-10-02 17:26
Thanks, everyone, for the valuable input. I have to confess that last night, as the unshaped piece of cork I had stuck (with no intention of permanence) on the key with some double-sided tape came loose, I decided I was convinced enough of where I wanted the touchpiece to be, and on the spur of the moment, got out my round-nosed pleyer and gently moved the key over, rotating it slightly to raise the finger side a little. I always worry about shearing the touchpiece off where it's soldered to the pivot barrel or bending the barrel, but all seems to have turned out well. Some of the suggestions you've given me may help, however, with future key shape problems. As I get older, my fingers get less flexible and their reach more limited.
Thanks again.
Karl
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-10-03 14:44
My latest bottle of contact cement suggests xylene as the solvent of choice. However, that should be used with care since it is a powerful solvent which is capable of dissolving materials on the surface of the skin and carrying them into the body. Handle it carefully with clean hands and, if possible, avoid having it contact the skin.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-10-03 15:21
I have frequently bent the touch piece so it was higher and added cork to the other side so the key wouldn't open too much. The Sugru method is probably preferable as a home fix.
Steve Ocone
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