 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: hammerclarinet
Date: 2015-09-20 08:05
Hi,
I own a Selmer Privilege A Clarinet (original version). The instrument is tuned to A 442. Playing in the US, I have to lower the pitch quite a lot to get it somewhat near 440. I can manage to get most of the instrument homogenized and pretty well-balanced tuning wise, but the notes that are still very sharp are long B, C, and C# (C# to a lesser extent than the long B and C). These notes tend to go 20 or more cents sharp at 440 and makes playing very difficult, especially because the notes are right in the middle of our range.
I've tried using a tuning ring (plastic vandoren) in between the mouthpiece and barrel, barrel and upper joint, and upper joint and lower joint. Each of these lowered the pitch a bit on the long B and C, but made the throat register notes flat.
I love the sound on this instrument, but this tuning issue is very frustrating. Any advice or suggestion is very appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2015-09-20 14:29
For comparison's sake, what is the difference
in "cents" between A=400 Hz and A=442 Hz ?
<edit>
i have one cent, expressed as a frequency ratio,
as C = 1.000577789506555
<edit 2>
so i think that the difference between A=440Hz and A=442Hz is 7.85141504011759 cents.. let us call that 8 cents ;-)
Post Edited (2015-09-20 14:46)
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Author: Monsterchef
Date: 2015-09-20 14:45
Not that I could offer any help, but does your horn play in tune regarding these notes when tuned to A=442? If not then logically described tuning problem does not have much to do with US/European pitch standard.
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Author: el gitano
Date: 2015-09-20 17:01
hi,
you have to find a mouthpiece with more volume, may be a bigbore mp will help.
Claus
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Author: kilo
Date: 2015-09-20 17:04
Unless you have to hold one of those notes for a long time (in which case you can bring it up to pitch) I don't think a normal listener in a normal audience is going to pick up on it.
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2015-09-20 17:48
perhaps the point I'm trying to make is this;
if you are more than 20 (or more) cents out, only 8 of those cents are due to the difference between 440Hz/442Hz pitch-standard; the other 12 (or more) cents is due to your airflow, embouchure, mouthpiece, reed and the clarinet design , etc......
[ I do wonder if these problems may be related to
the presumably larger bore of an A-clarinet ?... ]
-Andy-
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-09-20 18:02
The tendency is for these notes to be sharp and/or the E & F to be flat. If the E and F are also sharp it is easy to bring the notes down in pitch. If the E & F are in tune some compromise can be made fairly easily . If the E & F are very flat then it gets more complicated to improve. Without the clarinet in hand I can't say what is possible.
Steve Ocone
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2015-09-20 23:15
>>Conn 424N, 80N ,444N , Connstellation
are these Conns Bb models??
the OP is talking of a "Selmer Privilege A Clarinet",
which I assumed is an A-pitched soprano , i might be wrong.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-09-21 10:00
I own a Recital Bb made for A=442 and E4 to Bb4 all become flat when I use my Vandoren M30 13 mouthpiece.
E4 to G4 can be vented with the trill keys.
Maybe the tone holes can be undercut to raise the pitch but I suspect that would make them play louder.
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2015-09-21 14:46
Related question: are the 12th intervals between
similarly-fingered notes in the chalumeau and clarinet registers
inherently more out-of-tune with an A-clarinet , due to the larger bore (compared with Bb soprano) ???
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2015-09-21 21:51
"The question assumes that the bore is larger in an A clarinet than a Bb. Is that the case and if so by how much? Why ask questions when you can measure it?"
i own 5 Bb clarinets,(vintage: Buffet, Leblanc,, Rudall+Carte, Victory; modern: Yamaha):
all have bores between 14.7 and 14.9 mm (@ exit of upper joint, apart from the metal-one piece Victory). I have one A clarinet , an older wooden Kohlert , bore circa 15.1 mm.
To try to pacify our resident Silversorcerer, i'll rephrase my question ;
are the 12th intervals between
similarly-fingered notes in the chalumeau and clarinet registers
inherently more out-of-tune with a larger bore clarinet (say B >=15mm)
compared with a smaller-bore clarinet ( say B <=14.8mm) ???
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2015-09-22 01:30
I suggest that the OP's tuning problems may be in the large part due to something other than the pitch to which the instrument is built, and if they buy another A440Hz -pitched A clarinet, they may still have around the 12+ cents of sharpness to accommodate / adjust. I suggest they should consider the bore size of their next purchase - my own 'A', an intermediate 1950's wooden instrument, has tuning issues , in part due to wear, a replacement barrel, & in part, I believe, due to the larger than 'normal' bore.
I've also read on this forum that "large-bore" Bb clarinets have their own distinctive tuning issues - the LeBlanc Dynamic H / Pete Fountain/ 1606 & the old Selmer BT and CT instruments might merit a mention here, but I have no direct experience of these models.
Trying to help the OP, i might suggest trying tuning ring(s) *only* between upper & lower joints and in the bell joint. Or, as has been suggested, sell it and try as many replacement 'A's as you can in front of an electronic tuner.
-A-
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-09-22 01:58
Silversourcerer,
"Why ruin with haphazard guesses a perfectly good modern clarinet built to the 442 pitch standard?"
Who said I would? The general question was if undercutting affects evenness. I would try out principles on cheap pawnshop clarinets and then possibly modify a valuable instrument a fraction just to help mitigate a problem.
Then there are instruments that only come in A=442 Hz versions, for instance the Selmer Privilege and most basses.
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Author: na1965
Date: 2015-09-22 04:44
My daughter plays a set of first generation Selmer Privilege clarinets. I believe they were marketed as "universal pitch" (diapason universal) and they came with both 65.5mm and 66.5mm barrels for each clarinet. Is a 1mm difference in barrel length really the difference between a clarinet tuned to A440 vs A442, or is this simply clever marketing?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-09-22 05:09
SilverSorcerer,
"...let me say it so you get it" Your posts have become annoying to me. Tone it down.
HRL
Post Edited (2015-09-22 05:39)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-09-22 08:47
I have a Selmer Privilege II A clarinet and will check it later when I can. From what I remember though the intonation of the F/C and E/B is one of the things they worked on for the II model.
At least here, a lot of players need to use the same instrument for both 440 and 442. Also, things like temperature often affect the clarinet significantly more than 440 vs. 442. So you'd have to adjust in a way that would change the inner intonation of the clarinet, plus be able to play both 440 and 442 in different conditions on the same instrument.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-09-22 11:02
I don't know if the spec differences you quoted are for the current Privilege II or the original (which are not the same), but either way the website doesn't mention several differences that are obvious to anyone who played or even held both of these models.
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2015-09-22 11:20
" measure it and put a number on it."
you clearly either have missed or chosen to ignore the post where i gave 6 measurements (mostly mid-century instruments, with cylindrical bores ) and some suggested definitions of regular/small bore and large bore, for the sake of a simple discussion. So I'm opting out of this particular pissing contest.
As an aside, I had to google the Selmer Privilege in A :
3980 British Pound = 6168 US Dollar.
Thats a lot of money.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-09-22 13:04
Silversorcerer wrote:
> ...
> French clarinets made and imported before 1920 marked "LP" are
> pitched at A=435 Hz, which is the old International Standard
> enacted by law in France in 1858. It is likely that Low Pitch
> instruments built in the USA before 1920 were also A=435 Hz.
> ...
Not quite. The old French standard was A=435Hz at 15ºC which amounts to 439Hz at 20ºC which is just under 4 cents flatter than 440Hz. The extra 1Hz, giving the modern A=440Hz at 20ºC standard, was added because that made it easier to generate the tone electronically and insignificant as far as instrument manufacture was concerned.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-09-22 13:53
Johan H Nilsson wrote:
> ... The general question was if undercutting
> affects evenness. ...
Not significantly. That is one of the main advantages of undercutting for tuning. Enlarging the hole would change the cutoff frequency making the note brighter (rather than louder). Undercutting keeps the cutoff frequency of the smaller hole as this link explains http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/baclac_art.htm
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-09-22 15:14
Thanks, Dibbs. This encourages me to experiment with undercutting on some instruments with very flat throat tones, even at A=442.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-09-22 18:41
I just checked the Privilege II A clarinet. I would say that overall instonation is excellent, one of the better clarinets I've tried, with no probelamtic spots. The low F is a bit low, but less than most other professional clarinets (really minimal). The middle B and C are a little sharp, but no more than any good clarinet and less than many. I would say the 12ths of the long notes are good.
I can't say if it's significantly different than the original Privilege, it's been a couple of years since I've tried it (a bunch of them actually).
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2015-09-22 22:57
So much information and especially misinformation here. Even though I haven't the time or patience to read through all of the posts, please forgive my temerity to rebut a few of the glaring gaffes.
To start with, the bore of most, if not all, A clarinets is smaller (not larger) than the bore of the same maker's Bb clarinets of the same series. Lowering pitch by using a larger chamber mouthpiece will really upset the apple cart -- making the throat tones totally unusable.
Using a slightly longer barrel of appropriate bore would seem to be the most logical strategy. Lowering the pitch of long B by pulling bell slightly is a possibility. Adjusting C and D is not difficult, using bits of tape in the appropriate tone holes. I don't know many pro clarinetists who don't have some tape (or wax or nail polish) somewhere on their instruments.
Most groups I've played with tend to tune sharper that A=440 anyway -- if you are egregiously sharp to your ensemble, make sure that they aren't tuning below 440 or that your settup isn't making you even higher than 442.
I don't have any experience with the Selmer Privilege, but have had a number of students with German-made Buffet E11s. Those instruments (god knows why) come with a ridiculously short barrel. Invariably when we've switched to a R13 65 or 66mm barrel, intonation is perfectly usable.
No clarinet, because of the inherent compromises in overblowing 12ths, is ever going to perfectly in tune. Players must learn of their instrument's idiosyncrasies and make adjustments in their playing.
Larry Bocaner
National Symphony (Washington DC) retired
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-09-23 00:16
Attachment: Privilege Bb.jpg (119k)
Attachment: Seles Presence.jpg (111k)
Rather than talk about the Selmer Privilege Bb, I can show the figures. I was in Selmer's showroom in Paris a while ago and tested two different copies. The graph shows one of them with the original barrel (probably 65.5 mm) fully inserted and then pulled about 1 mm (the average deviation from A=440 was +17 and-3 cents respectively). With the barrel pulled it is obvious how the short tones flatten. This instrument does not sound good over the register break in A=440.
The other graph shows two Seles Presence clarinets with the original barrel (probably 66.5 mm). They were +4 and +3 cents compared to A=440 with the barrel fully inserted.
My conclusion is that the Seles Presence is a lot easier to play in an A=440 environment than a Privilege.
Remarks:
I used a regular Vandoren M30 mouthpiece.
Taking the Seles Presence barrel to the Privilege clarinet gave virtually the same curve as pulling the 65.5 mm barrel.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-09-23 09:26
Re the bore, I measured the Privilege II A clarinet. The top of the upper section near the very end is 15.39mm and the bottom of the upper section is 14.60mm, so the absolute end is a bit over and under respecitively.
I could how someone would consider the long B and C sharp, though at least on this II they are slightly sharp but better than most pro clarinets really. The intonation of this clarinet is excellent, one of the best I've tried. It even goes into the "if something happened to my clarinet I would consider it as a replacement" pile.
>> I don't know many pro clarinetists who don't have some tape (or wax or nail polish) somewhere on their instruments. <<
Statistically, I see probably less than 10%, maybe even as little as 1% of professional and other good and excellent players use tape or anything else to change tone hole sizes. By far most don't. I guess that can vary in different locations, etc.
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