 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2015-07-28 21:51
I'd like to pose a question to the members given all the discussion about mouthpieces and the variety available these days.
"Should the advancing student modify their technique to a standard mouthpiece or find a mouthpiece that makes their playing easier?"
I ask this as I've read many opinions about mouthpieces and concerns about mouthpieces and have some of my own. Today we have what seems like limitless options but there were many great players, significant players who had to play stock mouthpieces back when there weren't options, or so it would seem. Sydney Bechet comes to mind as having a wonderful sound but he likely, given the times he lived in and racism, never had near the choices we have at our disposal. So I also ask, doesn't the player make the mouthpiece sound great? Or are we to believe the mouthpiece significantly contributes to the players sound? And lastly, at what point has one developed their playing enough to merit the attempts to tweak ones sound to be their unique sound?
Just some philosophical questions that have occurred to me now that I've been a member of the forum for a few years and been intrigued by the constant equipment searching.
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2015-07-28 22:00
I started with a 5rv Lyre and that gave me a bit of an advantage in the very beginning. Honestly I didn't realize I was using a good mouthpiece until a year later, but I think this has helped me progress more than if I had switched from a stock mouthpiece before.
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Author: William
Date: 2015-07-28 22:13
The late and wonderful Emily Bernstein recorded the soundtrack for the Tom Hanks movie, "The Terminal" using a Woodwind G8 that she had played for years.
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Author: Carmelo
Date: 2015-07-28 23:25
Hi Brian,
Find a mouthpiece that allows you to make music with the greatest ease. Mark Nuccio has a video that gives some insight on this:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrL_SbFlgNA
Let us know what you think!
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2015-07-28 23:44
I just remembered I have a friend who didn't bother shopping around at all and just played the MP that came with his Yamaha custom and he sounds great
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2015-07-28 23:50
Carmelo,
Of course I have some thoughts about this subject but how am I to test my thoughts? I presented the questions to the bulletin board because I know there are some VERY accomplished players and teachers who monitor the discussions, at least occasionally. I'm certain that none of them learned on custom Greg Smith, custom Clark Fobes or Rico Reserve mouthpieces (all very viable options today). Mr. Nuccio sounded wonderful prior to them developing a Rico Reserve mouthpiece and I'm sure if he separates from the company he'll still sound wonderful. I presume they all found their sound using the equipment which was available to them, most of which likely wasn't custom.
So did their unique morphology inspire them to be clarinetists because is was easier for them to produce a good sound or did they develop their sound and embrochure using equipment that forced them to a known standard etc.... and find nuance later?
It is, at best, a philosophical series of questions and I'm interested in hearing opinions and experiences. I hope this thread garners some attention and we have a good discussion!
Brian
PS - I've been playing for a good while and play well but not nearly professional as I'm sure many here aren't. I wonder given the limited time I spend practicing compared to a professional if a custom mouthpiece is worth the investment when my technique could be so much better!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-29 00:17
bbillings wrote:
> "Should the advancing student modify their technique to a
> standard mouthpiece or find a mouthpiece that makes their
> playing easier?"
>
Since these are "just some philosophical questions," I'll try to give a general, philosophical answer (I apologize for the length):
To begin, it depends a little on what you mean by "a standard mouthpiece." And what technique of the advancing student you have in mind. It also matters who you're including as an "advancing student." Does that describe a level the student has already reached or only that he's getting better steadily (which could include many virtual beginners)?
I'll let you clarify the first and third parts. As to a student's modifying his technique, I'd suggest they are modifying the technique to conform to standard concepts of playing rather than to the mouthpiece. The mouthpieces I would consider "standard" are ones that are designed to support widely accepted ideas of clarinet tone and response, based on generally recognized influences and exemplars in whatever musical genre the student is pursuing. An advancing student will find ways to produce the sounds and styles he wants to produce provided that the equipment he's using (you have to go beyond the mouthpiece) isn't actually interfering in some specific way.
In a sense, all the advice about trying different mouthpieces (or substitute reeds, barrels, ligatures, instruments, even bells) is a little overwrought where students are concerned. Experienced players with formed opinions about sound concepts and expectations about response comfort have criteria for choosing among the myriad choices available today. A student with considerably less experience has necessarily less clear criteria on which to base his decisions. Musical playing is possible on nearly anything of decent quality that's available today. The choice isn't important until the student has reached a level at which he has reasons for them.
An advanced student (depending on what students you meant) has probably already been indoctrinated well into the realm of standard concepts and has already built his technique to some extent around them. At that point, he isn't so much modifying his technique as trying to accommodate individual physical characteristics and to limit the restrictions his equipment places on him.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-29 00:37
I pretty much agree with what's been said, but I'll go a step further.
I think the question is based on a false premise. Bonade pretty much advocated the idea that there was generally one basic mouthpiece facing (give or take) that worked best for good classical technique. The longer I play, the more that I agree with that notion. Of course anyone marketing a mouthpiece or refacing services will find ways to describe their product as unique, but quite frankly all the best ones are just minor variations of "the standard."
So if you have a Vandoren M13 or 5RV Lyre or a Masters CL4 you will not find anything better (per se), only minor variations that may or may not help you do some things a little better.
The best argument to stay clear of really esoteric, pricey mouthpieces is one of replaceability. If your precious mouthpiece meets an untimely end (or irrevocable alteration) than getting another M13 won't be so hard (and you should probably carry a second with you anyway). So just consider the practicality of the situation before you commit.
Finally, playing is all about controlling the air and phrasing beautifully. You can have a so-so tone and still be an amazing musician. So I would place greater emphasis on what YOU can do to shape the sound, the phrase, the articulation rather than worry about some mouthpiece you don't have yet.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: cantplayhigh
Date: 2015-07-29 00:40
kdk wrote:
> bbillings wrote:
>
> > "Should the advancing student modify their technique to a
> > standard mouthpiece or find a mouthpiece that makes their
> > playing easier?"
> >
>
> Since these are "just some philosophical questions," I'll try
> to give a general, philosophical answer (I apologize for the
> length):
>
> To begin, it depends a little on what you mean by "a standard
> mouthpiece." And what technique of the advancing student you
> have in mind. It also matters who you're including as an
> "advancing student." Does that describe a level the student has
> already reached or only that he's getting better steadily
> (which could include many virtual beginners)?
>
> I'll let you clarify the first and third parts. As to a
> student's modifying his technique, I'd suggest they are
> modifying the technique to conform to standard concepts of
> playing rather than to the mouthpiece. The mouthpieces I would
> consider "standard" are ones that are designed to support
> widely accepted ideas of clarinet tone and response, based on
> generally recognized influences and exemplars in whatever
> musical genre the student is pursuing. An advancing student
> will find ways to produce the sounds and styles he wants to
> produce provided that the equipment he's using (you have to go
> beyond the mouthpiece) isn't actually interfering in some
> specific way.
>
> In a sense, all the advice about trying different mouthpieces
> (or substitute reeds, barrels, ligatures, instruments, even
> bells) is a little overwrought where students are concerned.
> Experienced players with formed opinions about sound concepts
> and expectations about response comfort have criteria for
> choosing among the myriad choices available today. A student
> with considerably less experience has necessarily less clear
> criteria on which to base his decisions. Musical playing is
> possible on nearly anything of decent quality that's available
> today. The choice isn't important until the student has reached
> a level at which he has reasons for them.
>
> An advanced student (depending on what students you meant) has
> probably already been indoctrinated well into the realm of
> standard concepts and has already built his technique to some
> extent around them. At that point, he isn't so much modifying
> his technique as trying to accommodate individual physical
> characteristics and to limit the restrictions his equipment
> places on him.
>
> Karl
Might as well let this be my first post as I mostly lurk here....
Coming from a relative newbie - this is the truth and nothing but the truth, Karl.
I'm more than fortunate to have a nice clarinet (R13), a Clark Fobes Debut mouthpiece and a Vandoren Optimum ligature. This - along with my wonderful teacher - is all I should need for years to come. So much of the other possibilities is lost on someone like myself.
I spend my time practicing and not trying to determine whatsoever if I need should try another mouthpiece, barrel, bell or ligature. At my beginner level, nothing else is going to allow me to play better than practice.
That being said - in my other instrument I've been playing for almost 40 years, there's a claim to be made (somewhat) that changing various elements of the setup will / can matter. Even then, it become splitting hairs and may really be preference versus need.
I think at a point there's diminishing returns on "upgrades".
Just my opinion and none of it does nor should matter to all you highly skilled folks on this board.
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2015-07-29 00:51
Karl,
Thank you. Yours is one of the voices I'd hoped to hear as I think your responses are generally well thought out and composed.
As I'm the intended consumer of the information, of course, I'll add some information to the discussion. I'm an adult who took up the clarinet about 6 or 7 years ago and have been progressing and improving since. I'd suggest that I can play in line with a good high school graduate but not as well as a college music major. I maintain a relatively regular practice schedule and take routine private lessons as well as playing in local groups. My equipment is in good working order and of high quality. My tutor is decidedly not an equipment snob.
I appreciate that you turned the focus more toward a concept of sound and developing that as opposed to trying to "buy a sound" with new equipment. I have been playing a well respected mouthpiece makers offering designed for "advancing students." For whatever reason, as I've grown as a player I have also begun fighting it to achieve the sound I'm intending. I'm in the process of considering a new mouthpiece and am trying to narrow my choices. Rather than ask recommendations, as all the threads make clear it is a very individual choice, I thought I'd inquire about the philosophy of learning the clarinet as it relates to equipment choice. So, should I continue with a very good quality medium curve/medium tip opening mouthpiece offering and is that preferable for my development as a player or should I choose a mouthpiece that speaks most easily for me currently? Most of the makers of note seem to suggest their student and advancing student offerings "aid in embrochure development."
Thank you,
Brian
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2015-07-29 01:00
Paul,
Great to hear from you!
I wholeheartedly agree with your statement about finding a replacement if/when needed. That, however, opens up a can of worms! I can't tell you how many threads advocate choosing between multiple examples of the same Vandoren or other so how close are the finished products? Further, are they more consistent via CNC machining or molding? Is it more important to have one that has been personally voiced and checked by an accomplished player? Last thought is one I read about time and pressure affecting the playing characteristics of the mouthpiece. In fact, I recall reading a thread that you indicated a desire to switch mouthpiece approximately every 5 years, lol!
Finally, having looked at the history of the facings and their popularity at some of the manufacturers websites it seems facings move with the fads (sound concepts?) of the time
Brian
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-29 02:30
bbillings wrote:
> Finally, having looked at the history of the facings and their
> popularity at some of the manufacturers websites it seems
> facings move with the fads (sound concepts?) of the time
>
To an extent, that's true. But there's much more to a mouthpiece's design and construction than the facing itself, so you have to consider the mouthpiece as a whole. The people who make mouthpieces (or custom finish mass-produced blanks) tend to produce either what they themselves like to play on (accommodating their individual conceptual and physical idiosyncrasies) or what their customers seem to want (which can be faddish) or a combination. It's true, too, that tonal concepts have shifted in many ways since the days when Bonade and other Curtis faculty taught many of the upcoming American players of their day.
At the point when you've developed a conceptual sense of what you want to sound like and how you want the setup to respond, you have reached the crossroad where choice matters, the point where you are modifying the equipment to suit your concept rather than modifying your technique to a standard. You can make music with many different mouthpieces, but one may make your expectations easier to achieve than another. That's where the individual quality of the process becomes important and where trying many possibilities becomes meaningful.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-29 06:31
Mouthpieces are for the most part much more consistent than they used to be "back in the day." However, I have run into one brand that is just plain scary in consistency. That would be the CNC machined acrylic mouthpieces of ESM (the ones I love are the MCK-1 facings). However Vandoren has gotten to the point where you have to try out a bunch to find one that might not work (the others of a particular facing playing as you'd expect).
I have admitted on this Board that I tend to "move along" pretty regularly from one piece of equipment to another, but I do not endorse this behavior. I've heard far better results from players that develop the sort of familiarity that with their set up that can only come from years of "locking in." So, I wish I didn't tend that way.
I don't know about "voicing and tuning" per se, but there are some fine mouthpiece folks such as Greg Smith (also a fine player of course) who will refine the facing to the point where the response becomes amazing at any point where the reed vibrates (even at the hardest point to get right which is at the very tip that is engaged mostly in the altissimo). If there is any voicing or tuning that can be done for you, it must be done with you sitting down with the mouthpiece guy and working out the kinks in real time. No one can play the mouthpiece for you.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-07-30 01:50
Many years ago - in College days - I participated in a clarinet clinic/masterclass which still looms large in my memory. I forget the major instructor, but we had probably about 40 players, from High School through Grad School. The instructor spoke about various techniques and styles, and demonstrated a lot of passages for us. He did not have his instrument. He did tell us upfront that he would like to borrow our clarinets briefly to perform demonstrations and excerpts. He would hold out his arm, palm open, and one of us would hand him our horn. No - we didn't think about germs and sanitary conditions. But it did have an amazing effect on most all of us. A student might hand him a Noblet, the next a Bundy with the Geo M Bundy mouthpiece and a Rico 2, I handed him my R13 with my custom made Frank Wells and well-worked over old purple-box Vandoren reed, the next guy his Selmer with a different set-up. What stuck with me all these years later is that this player sounded amazing - and sounded exactly the same on every horn. That blew me away. It really isn't equipment. Equipment is nice, actually equipment is great! It helps us attain what our hearts hold in us for our own sound. Given time, I know I will sound like I do, if I take my treasured current Fobes CWF, and smack it into a brick wall, and pop on a Selmer HS* mouthpiece. Might take me an hour or a day, but I'll adapt knowingly or unknowingly until my ear hears what I do. Yes, I try a lot of mouthpieces, but I know it is just a tool to accomplish an end. Some tools help get the job done easier than others.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2015-08-02 15:15
Others have already made much more eloquent and well-considered posts than I have, but I think my recent adventures in mouthpiece-land are relevant here.
I've been playing the same Hawkins for about 6 years, after my teacher in college gave it to me. I think he really didn't like the Borbeck mouthpiece I had been playing on. The entire process of trying the mouthpiece was slapping a reed on in a lesson and playing through whatever we were working on that day. We both agreed it sounded better and that was it. I never completely loved my sound, but it was working well enough for me. I was practicing hours a day and performing multiple times a week and just didn't have time to think about it. I played on it and got a lot better.
Fast forward a few years out of college, I have a day job and am playing clarinet for a couple of hours after work each day, but not really playing out like I was then. I got the impulse to try out a few Clark Fobes mouthpieces, after quite a few years of loving a San Francisco bass clarinet mouthpiece I bought from him, so I ordered a CF, a CWF and a CF+ and have been going back and forth between the three for a few weeks now.
All three are fantastic. Miles better (for me) than the Hawkins. When I'm playing them alone in my room, one after another, on the same passages of music, the differences feel enormous. I'll think "oh, the CWF is so incredibly dark" or "the CF has the most beautiful ringing tone." And I don't think I'm wrong about those things, but when I actually get out and play chamber music with my friends, there are still differences, but they aren't the night-and-day differences that I perceive when I'm sitting alone thinking about equipment. The mouthpieces make a difference, which is noticeable to friends who I play with a lot, but it's subtle, certainly not earth-shattering.
I'm starting to think that, when we aim to sound beautiful (or whatever your goal is) on the clarinet, 85% of that is technique and 15% is equipment. Breaking it down further, the difference between adequate equipment (something that works for you, but maybe isn't that dream instrument, mouthpiece, reed, etc.) and ideal equipment can't be more than 5% of that total, if that, even. I think I can sound pretty good on a B40, but even better on that CF (or CWF!), for example, but I don't know that most people would notice the difference.
I think we as clarinetists (especially as clarinetists?) tend to get so obsessed with finding the equipment that will close that last little gap, that we lose perspective on the massive gains we stand to make in the much bigger 85% portion. I definitely don't think that this means we shouldn't try to find great equipment. We all want to sound as good as possible. Time spent searching for equipment often seems to cut into time spent with a clarinet in your hands, though, and that's when you have to question the value of it.
Having a hard time choosing between Fobes mouthpieces is a good problem to have, but I think I'm going to have to make a decision this weekend so I can just get back to practicing for the next 6 years or so!
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-08-02 17:25
I recommend a good inexpensive student mouthpiece like the Fobes Debut till the student is ready to move up. Then I recommend that they work with their teacher. If no teacher is available I help them choose among a short list of "dependable middle of the road" mouthpieces.
Steve Ocone
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2015-08-05 17:54
I'm surprised this didn't inspire a bit more conversation. Does anyone use different mouthpieces for different musical situations? I watched a good YouTube video by Mike Vaccaro and he indicates keeping different mouthpieces for different applications.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-08-05 23:47
bbillings wrote:
> Does
> anyone use different mouthpieces for different musical
> situations? I watched a good YouTube video by Mike Vaccaro and
> he indicates keeping different mouthpieces for different
> applications.
Well, apparently he does. I think if I played a lot of jazz or big band music, I might use an entirely different setup, including the mouthpiece. More likely, most players who are that eclectic find something in the center of the universe that makes classical and jazz equally accessible rather than maintaining reeds for two different mouthpieces. The differences are in any case as much in the technical approaches as they are in the equipment. Again, if you tend to specialize, specific equipment can make it easier to work in that specific area.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-08-06 00:16
Also Alessandro Carbonare is known for switching mouthpieces for different affects depending on the piece. I think a majority of players (in one genre) however, will choose to stick with one familiar set-up and experiment with the wide variety of parameters available within it. There are SOOOO many sounds available that way and it makes life easier (it's much harder to adapt to another set-up for a certain sound rather than the other way around......for me and others).
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-08-06 01:08
I'd sure like to have a list of those dependable middle of the road mouthpieces for future reference. Right now and probably for the next couple of years I'm very happy with my Fobes Debut.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-08-06 01:54
EaubeauHorn wrote:
> I'd sure like to have a list of those dependable middle of the
> road mouthpieces for future reference. Right now and probably
> for the next couple of years I'm very happy with my Fobes
> Debut.
Your "middle of the road" may be different from the "standard" one.
Having said this, the most "middle" mouthpieces would probably be 5RV (2RV) and 5RVLyre of Vandoren and BP2 (B. Portnoy)
On a side of a closer tip opening, good standard mouthpieces are Vandoren's M13, M13Lyre, (more advanced) M15 and Portnoy's BP1.
On a more open side (less recommended for the beginners typically) are ubiquitous Vandoren's B45 and Portnoy's BP3.
Since Vandoren's specs are well described, it would be possible to find comparable mouthpieces of other manufacturers.
I personally like M13 Lyre (great starter mouthpiece in my experience and opinion) and Backun's Zinner-based mouthpieces for their stability.
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