 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2015-07-10 00:39
I have always had a terrible time with biting. As a saxophonist years ago, I was always biting on the saxophone, but I loved playing the clarinet. After quitting for many years, and then picking up the clarinet exclusively I was surprised to discover that I started biting on the clarinet. (Now it's mostly when I'm tired.)
I bite because I feel like I can't control the sound otherwise. I always thought the reason was that my mouthpiece(s) were too open, but I think it was the lay.
I picked up my saxophone again after not playing it at all for years. I tried playing a S-80 C* and started biting. I didn't like the sound and couldn't control it, so I just started trying my other mouthpieces. I picked up a S-80 D somebody gave me and everything improved. This of course made no sense whatsoever, because the D is a lot more open than the C*. I couldn't figure out why it played so much better, especially because my clarinet mouthpiece (what I'm used to) is rather closed.
I measured the lay on the two saxophone mouthpieces, and discovered that on the particular ones I had, the lay on the D was about 1/8" shorter than the C*. (Even though they are supposed to be the same.) Measurements were not sophisticated, but I was careful and did it several times. There was a huge difference. I also have a C**which is similar to the D. The C** and my D were clearly made different from the C*. The C* has a narrow tip rail, and very little roll over "baffle" at the tip, whereas the C** and D had a larger tip rail, seemed to have a much thicker beak on top, and a noticeable roll that blended the tip to the chamber. The C** (and I assume the D) are from the late 80s, and the C* from the early 90s.
Has anyone had the experience that a shorter lay helped them to get better control and stop biting?
NB: I've only ever used two clarinet mouthpieces, the B45 I used when I played before, and a Gennusa Excellente I got less than a year ago because I was struggling with the B45.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2015-07-10 00:45)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-10 02:11
It seems to me biting (pressing against the reed with the lower teeth) is a matter of misusing the jaw muscles to do things that would be better accomplished with the lip muscles. You do need to provide some support foundation and pressure on the reed to keep it under control, but whatever pressure is needed should be applied by the lips as they form around the mouthpiece. This shouldn't be influenced by the length of the curve or the tip opening. It has to do with which muscles are doing what.
It may partly explain a feeling of lack of control if you aren't adjusting the amount of reed you take into your mouth to accommodate the length of the curve. In general you should take in more reed if the curve length is longer. Ideally, you need to use the least effort when the point where your teeth contact the reed (padded by your lower lip, of course) at the point where the mouthpiece begins to separate from the reed.
Karl
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2015-07-10 02:19
Perhaps it's about the total mouthpiece opening. I just tried out quite a closed mouthpiece for about a week. The lay length is about the same as my normal mouthpiece, but it's more closed and needs harder reeds. Then I played a show on my old (more open) mouthpiece with my usual softer reeds and my lip muscles were exhausted by the end.
Maybe more open mouthpieces need more embouchure work to control? I would say that a longer lay also contributes to a more open mouthpiece.
Post Edited (2015-07-10 02:22)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-07-10 03:12
If I had your situation, I would look carefully at the mouthpiece facings and probably conclude that they are warped or never made properly. Since I reface mouthpieces, I would proceed to fix them. Good luck!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-10 03:54
Liquorice wrote:
> Maybe more open mouthpieces need more embouchure work to
> control? I would say that a longer lay also contributes to a
> more open mouthpiece.
>
I would agree. Maybe Matt needs to clarify what he means by biting. As I understand the word, it isn't the same as "embouchure work," which *is* necessary, IMO, to control a more open mouthpiece or one with a shorter curve. But one of the reasons for using longer curves, which Matt asks about, is to allow the use of either stiffer reeds or more open facings, to mitigate the increased resistance of either setup, because of differences players hear in the sound quality that results.
So, some of the advice we offer may depend on what Matt means by "biting." It should take less embouchure *effort* to play a long facing than a short one, and it should take more effort to play a mouthpiece with a more open tip than a closer one. And the effort needed can be affected by reed choice. But, IMO, true "biting" (with the jaw muscles) shouldn't need to be a part of the equation regardless of the equipment.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-07-10 06:01
Alexander Selmer, in his Instructive Talks to Clarinetists, issued over 60 years ago, had this to say:
"Personal experience has proved to me that the short French lay, played with both upper and lower teeth covered by the lips, the lips fitting around the mouthpiece like a rubber band, merely tight enough to keep the air from escaping at the sides of the mouth and sustain the tone, give the most general satisfaction and best results; but, by the formation of the mouth, teeth, etc., it is impossible for some players to use the upper lip over the teeth, in which case I recommend that they use the least possible pressure on the top of the mouthpiece with the teeth.
"The teeth act merely as a support for the lips; in fact, what ever pressure . . . is necessary around the mouthpiece and reed should come from the lips only. If pressure is used with the teeth, it merely tends to irritate the lips."
Alexander Selmer probably played on an "A" Selmer facing which indeed was very short and closed at the tip (under 0.90 mm.), and his brother Henri Selmer probably played on the "HS" facing (not the more familiar HS*), which was open at the tip only to 0.95 mm. These small facing openings would make it fairly easy to play with pressure from the tips alone, as A. Selmer recommends.
The same principle applies today, but most players are more comfortable on facings a little longer (medium length) and a bit more open (meduim close). An open facing, like the Vandoren B45, is not the best choice for clarinetists trying to develop an embouchure because it encourages biting. Advanced pro players who have already accumulated years of experience and have "great chops" can decide to play a B45 for very specific reasons (to be heard over a percussion section, for example), but moderately close, medium long facings are better suited to developing players.
Some affordable mouthpieces that have very controllable facings in the moderately close, medium long range would be the Vandoren M13, the Vandoren M13 Lyre, and the Reserve X0. On them, it should be possible for developing players (and professionals as well) to follow Alexander Selmer's advice and--whether single or double lip--to play with a "rubber band" tension coming just from the lip muscles and devoid of tooth "bite" from above or below.
Post Edited (2015-07-10 16:18)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2015-07-10 06:44
I would reassess your embouchure, especially getting a nice flat pointed chin. Michelle Anderson of Clarinet Mentors has good ideas on this. Look at her website.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-07-11 16:46
The only problem with seabreeze's last statement is that the M13 is very long. The Lyre is less so, but could still be considered longer than the X0. The X0 is as close to a medium length facing in the 3 listed above.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2015-07-11 20:53
Thank you guys. I mean biting as in gnawing on your lower lip. I've given up on advice about embouchure. All it ever did was confuse me and cause pain (literally). The more I thought about, and the harder I tried to do what they told me, it the worse it got. (But that was saxophone. Clarinet wasn't an issue.) When I started playing again I realized that I would have to figure out what worked for me, and that meant trying different equipment.
Saxophonists are weird. When I started playing in middle school I had a Buescher True Tone, and used the Buescher mouthpiece. Everyone commented about how nice my tone was. That didn't stop my teacher from making me get a Selmer mouthpiece. Eventually I got a SA 80 ii horn and never heard another comment about my sound! I quit in college because I couldn't stand to listen to myself. LOL. I should have taken up clarinet full time, but oh well.
Your right, the solution to the problem with a longer lay would be to take in more mouthpiece. I've gotten better at it, but it's uncomfortable and I'm always reverting back to less mouthpiece unconsciously. If I had the money or need I would completely re-vamp my entire saxophone set up.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-11 21:30
Matt74 wrote:
> Thank you guys. I mean biting as in gnawing on your lower lip.
Matt I'm still not certain what you mean. Are you talking about your teeth cutting into your bottom lip? (I'm not sure about what the "gnawing" part means - makes me think of deliberately chewing.) You can use something to cover the edges of the bottom front teeth. I use EZO denture pads cut into short (1/2-inch, maybe a little wider) pieces to fold over my bottom teeth. It's basically gauze impregnated with beeswax. The beeswax softens in my mouth and makes the pad flexible and form-fitting over my teeth, which are slightly uneven. It protects my lip and makes long playing sessions more comfortable with no abrasion to deal with the next day. Other players use folded cigarette paper or the plastic guards athletes use. Dentists can make fitted plastic guards to do the same thing, but they're much more expensive than these other OTC remedies.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-07-12 00:13
I agree that in discussing what Selmer said and trying to translate his advice across time, I overgeneralized and oversimplified. The resistance curve of a facing is as important as the length and tip opening. That was a technicality that Alexander Selmer did not discuss in his talks to clarinetists. I agree that the facings of the M13 and the M13 lyre are longer than that of the Reserve X0, but they don't tax the embouchure the way some long facings do because they have very gentle, easily controlled resistance curves with close tip openings. By contrast, I find the more open and long new Vandoren BD5 and the M30 taxing to play and likely to encourage too much pressure from the teeth during extended playing or practice sessions. Also, I am relying on the English version of what Selmer said, which may be a translation from the French. Perhaps what he originally said was a "small" or close facing or lay rather than precisely a "short" one.
In any case, the lesson I take away from Selmer's remarks is that in today's mouthpieces, relatively close facings like the M13, the M13 lyre, and the Reserve X0 have the sort of response and feel that he attributed to the short, close facings of his time. They feel "short" in his sense of not taxing the embouchure and allowing the pressure to come from the "rubber band wrap" of the lips and underlying muscles rather than the teeth.
For greater accuracy, I would drop the generalization "medium length" (I should have said managable overall resistance curve, regardless of length) and restate my advice as the following: In general, fairly close facings, whether medium or long--provided they have the right resistance curve--are ideal for players who want to use just lip pressure (as recommended by A. Selmer) in their embouchure. Some fine examples of such facings are the Vandoren M13 and M13 lyre, the Reserve X0, the Fobes CWF, the MOBA C and L, the Grabner G11, and the Behn 0.98 and 1.02. The variations in the length of these facings are not important because they are all close at the tip (the M13 is 1.005 mm. the M13 lyre is 1.02 mm, the Reserve X0 is 1.00 mm., the MOBA C is 0.99m, and the L is 1.03 mm, the Grabner G11 is 1.01 mm, and the Behns are of course 0.98 and 1.02 mm). They all have managable resistance curves that discourage biting.
Post Edited (2015-07-13 01:27)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-13 01:17
I think that this statement is the key:
"Your right, the solution to the problem with a longer lay would be to take in more mouthpiece. I've gotten better at it, but it's uncomfortable and I'm always reverting back to less mouthpiece unconsciously."
It seems that you go for a specific "comfort zone" as far as holding the mouthpiece in your mouth. It is probably not in the least related to how long or short the lay is. This is why a "squawk test" is such a valuable tool. It will tell you where you should be on any given mouthpiece. You then train yourself to hold THAT mouthpiece correctly and MAKE THAT position comfortable through continuous reinforcement.
Of course you could try to find mouthpieces that fit you better. This is easier with Vandorens because they have pretty much the full gamut of choices. The different beaks ("88" is narrower and "Standard" is thicker up and down) could even help you find a longer facing that "feels" like a shorter one.
At any rate biting is biting. The only way to not do it is to consciously train yourself out of it........... a long process of much repetition and careful self analysis. It's not easy, but it's the only way to change a bad habit.
Short attempts at double lip are quite helpful in this endeavor.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2015-07-13 06:38
Thank you for the mouthpiece thoughts seabreeze. Karl, I used to use paper, and even had a piece of retainer at one point. I had never considered denture strips though!
Paul: Thanks, I know about the squak test. I suppose if I can learn to play again (which was no simple accomplishment), I can lean how to do it differently than I did the first time.
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