 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: thomascl
Date: 2015-06-14 03:38
After a 4 year hiatus, I purchased a heavily used and beaten Buffet B12 and slowly picked it back up. It got to a point where I was sure I wanted to continue playing so I decided to make the investment into a nice R13 Prestige.
The jump from the B12 to the R13 Prestige is disappointing to say the least. I am worried there may be a crack or defect. The lower registers are beautiful in tone but anything above G (octave key + 3 fingers) is a problematic.
There is a 90% squeak rate for A (octave + 2). I've triple checked my finger seating to make sure it is not my lack of pressure to seal air. It isn't my embouchure as I can play all other notes around it without such a high rate of failure.
Now I'm led to believe it is either the Gore-Tex padding or there is something seriously wrong.
Another problem is that certain notes like C are projecting much more loudly than other notes. So much it might sound out of tune.
Another thought is that maybe this clarinet isn't really broken in yet. I bought a new E11 years ago and cannot seem to remember how the break-in went and if there were the same difficulties.
Thank you for the insight.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-06-14 05:15
On many clarinets, the Upper register A, Bb, and B are probably some of the hardest notes to play and control. Not sure accoustically what the heck is going on, but those have the highest tendence to sqeak or have an undertone (also known as "grunt") when trying to play them. It'd be easy enough to have a good player check out your horn and see if it IS the horn, but it's also very likely that it's just an air support/embouchure fix that's needed. I wouldn't be too quick to blame the horn on this, but definitely have someone play it. Took me a LONG time of playing long tones on each note starting at ppp to control the A, Bb, and B on my horns.
As for some notes projecting louder than others, that happens on many clarinets. Some notes naturally have less resistance in them so if you were to keep a constant airstream and play a scale upwards, some notes will naturally BE louder. It's one of the things I test when I'm trying out clarinets (I want a clarinet that has very even resistance throughout, note to note). You'll never get it PERFECT, but it's up to you if you want to deal with that particular tendency or not. On the horn I use the most right now, it has a VERY easy blowing resistance throughout and is great to play. Problem is when I switch to a different horn I use for outdoor and bad-weather gigs (which is often) which is NOT easy blowing throughout and I need to remember different fingerings for altissimo notes due to different tuning tendencies, different resonance fingerings for throat tones, etc. etc. So far so good, but it does become a pain sometimes.
For what it's worth, I personally have never played an R13 prestige I've considered impressive or even worth buying. I almost ALWAYS run into issues with the left hand thumb and forefinger E and thumb F being horribly flat and needing to vent the side Eb/Bb key just to bring it up in tune. Same with many regular R13s I've tried.
If you still have the option, I'd return the R13 prestige and get some professional help to pick out a great clarinet (even if you have to pay a teacher to try out a few or help you decide). If this is the case, and you're hell-bent on Buffet, I'd urge you to try out the buffet vintage or buffet festivals as I've had good success enjoying almost every one of those models that I've tried.
If it's past the point of no return, I would work with a teacher to ensure you're technique is solid enough that it's definitely the horn, and then I'd find a good clarinet customizer that can tweak individual notes for you. Lohf and Pfeiffer or Tom Ridenour would be my first choices (although Tom might be too busy with his own horns or even closing in on retirement to help you).
Alexi <- Just my humble musings, thoughts, and advice.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-06-14 05:47
If you bought the instrument from a physical store with a repair shop, your first step might be to take the clarinet there and have it checked out. If you bought it online, you may have to choose between having a repair tech you can get to look it over or returning the clarinet and trying either another Prestige or something different. This kind of problem should be covered by the guarantee.
There is sometimes a lack of stability to Ab5 and A5. But they shouldn't be squeaking 90% of the time. If certain notes are out of tune or not consistent with the notes around them, a skilled repair person may be able to even things out, depending on the cause. But once you have someone work on it any return privilege will be cancelled.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-14 06:01
Hmmm.......
Though not the biggest Buffet fan on the Board, I have an opposite reaction. Those notes should not be particularly problematic.
I would check the possibility of a leak, particularly the pad just between fingers 1 and 2 of the left hand. If the pad is not coming down all the way when you have your finger down, that may easily cause the issue to which you refer. OR the other possibility is that the pad is closing too early and the ring of the 2nd finger is to high to allow your finger to fully seal that tone hole.
You should pick up the issue with a simple "negative pressure" test (or suction test). Take the top joint and place the corresponding fingers on the holes. Block the bottom with the heel of your right hand (fleshy part below your thumb - you can make this area damp first to ensure a good seal). Now place your lips against the top opening (trumpet style) and suck the air out of the top joint. It should hold pretty dramatically for a good while (five seconds or so), or even until you let go (at the mouth, bottom or one of the tone hole fingers). If it doesn't hold air (like a coke bottle) then there is definitely a leak.
As Alexi above, I too prefer the Buffet Vintage, but because it has more resonance and is not as bright sounding as the Prestige. I have recently played one that is easily one of the best clarinets I've ever played. Though even more oddly, I passed on purchasing one many years ago because that very "A" you are dealing with was unusually flat on that particular horn.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-06-14 09:24
As the owner of a Buffet Prestige R13, I haven't the problems you seem to be having. I've checked the F and E of the left hand and found that they are close to pitch if the instrument is warmed up. If they were flat, I can fix that as I have on other R13s. The upper register left hand notes are on pitch also and speak with no tendency to squeak.
You may have a slightly leaking pad or you could possibly not be covering the holes. Check the pads with a narrow cigarette paper feeler all around. Also, you could check the upper joint sealing by sucking on the top end with fingers on the holes and a cork in the bottom end. It should hold a vacuum with your tongue for a few seconds. A competent repair person could do this for you.
While these instruments are brighter than many R13s, they can be controlled to play very softly and less bright. I was fortunate to get one new for the cost of a new R13. As with the R13s, it needed some adjustments on the tenons, the springs, the sliver keys, etc to be what I preferred. Good Luck!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-14 09:28
Assuming (maybe incorrectly, since it wasn't mentioned) that you don't have those issues on the B12, a leak at the top, from one of the trill keys or throat keys, affects the upper clarion(your squeaky area) more than other areas.
Two common possibilities are the throat G# remaining open because the adjustment screw is hitting the A key or the F# key (first finger left hand) linkage arm (link to thumb F/C key) hitting the trill keys and raising them when you press it.
Of course it's possible there is one or more of many other possible problems.
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Author: thomascl
Date: 2015-06-14 09:44
It's very weird. The squeaking A has subsided or completely disappeared for now.
I definitely did a very thorough testing with a combination of Vandoren M15, M13, B45, and CL5. Every mouthpiece with different ligatures to see what kind of sounds were produced. I used three types of Vandoren reds, the V12, V21, and Rue 56. I swabbed every 7.5 minutes as well so I doubt it was a water issue. That continuous procedure in the first session produced squeaks on A for every mouthpiece combination.
Now later this night it is completely different. I'm still having difficulties with the altissimo notes compared to a plastic B12 (not sure if plastic is any easier). But overall I think if I give it another couple hours of play, all this might change.
A very thorough search online led me to conclude a clarinet does NOT need breaking in. Yet my second session in leads me to believe there is something changing.
I purchased the horn from the Netherlands where the shop said it was manufactured just this year. Could it be possible temperature fluctuations that the wood needs to "settle" in another continent?
Returning it would be a hassle, and this second session definitely gives me a better comprehension. I've tried the negative suction test and everything checks out. I'll give it a couple more sessions before I make any hasty decisions.
Thank you for your help!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-14 13:43
I liked the suggestion that it could also be the "A" key vs "G#" key clearance. Make sure there is a bit of give between these two keys.
It could still have been a pad issue, with the pads now having been exposed to some moisture, they could be "back to normal" (with regard to shape and size if they dried out too much sitting around). I don't remember exactly what pads are on the Prestige. But the R13 class is shipped with the cheapest most perfunctory pads (that Buffet for some strange reason even bothers to put their name on).
But I have tried out (literally) dozens of new horns in the last year and not found one new Buffet R13 or R13 Prestige that didn't PLAY right out of the box (having to remove the stupid cork wedges and all).
Correction: one did have a funny issue with the crow's foot, but a quick, judicious bending got that right back in line. I can't for the life of me figure how a brand new R13 had a crow's foot rubbing against alternate right hand "C#" key, or how it got shipped presumably after inspection from the factory and a reputable 'shop.'
I think (if not mistaken) all but the Divine and Tosca have that stupid spongy white material as a "bumper" on the crow's foot which make the mechanism harder to keep in adjustment.......WAKE UP BUFFET !!!!
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-06-14 19:07
If returning it would be an issue, I'd suggest a good repair shop that can tweak it and make sure that it is both well adjusted, AND even tweak individual notes for pitch tendencies.
Seems like a lot of work for one clarinet, but then again, it'll be a fantastic clarinet after the tweaks are done, and you only need one amazing clarinet, and maybe one as a backup if you so choose.
Quote:
Returning it would be a hassle, and this second session definitely gives me a better comprehension. I've tried the negative suction test and everything checks out. I'll give it a couple more sessions before I make any hasty decisions. Good idea. Give it a good warmup and then maybe download a tuning tendency chart and plot the tuning and relative resistance of notes.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2015-06-14 19:07)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-06-14 19:50
What mouthpiece are you using? Are you using one that came with it or the same one you use with your B12?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-06-15 07:56
It's worth checking if pressing the F and F# keys (i.e. the left hand thumb and first finger keys) harder causes the (not anymore?) problematic upper clarion notes to squeak.
It could be borderline so only if you press hard enough it raises the trill keys (an adjustment problem).
Post Edited (2015-06-15 16:56)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-06-15 16:13
People have made some excellent suggestions here (my prime suspect for this particular problem would be a very slight mis-adjustment of that pesky screw on the throat A-Ab crossover keys, where half a turn either way can create a tiny leak), but your experience that the squeaking A suddenly started to behave itself suggests to me that the right thing to do for now might be: nothing.
Caveat: I'm an amateur and I don't play an R13 Prestige. But sometimes band-new pads need a bit of playing time to groove in, and the fact that your A stopped squeaking without tinkering makes me think that's what's going on here. I think you should put up with any annoyances and continue with the normal breaking-in process for about two more weeks, just to hear what happens.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-06-15 17:47
Short circuit speculation and get it checked by a really good technician that is an expert on Buffet. After it is fixed and pronounced good, then you can worry about possible issues.
I really liked my last R13 B-Flat ... it was special. My A is not quite as good, but loaned out, so don't play it ... I hate to sell it.
Now Ridenour Lyrique player ...
Tom
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