 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Squidward
Date: 2015-06-07 23:43
Hello all.
I posted a while back asking for advice on expanding my altissimo range, and have been working on it since. I have gotten a slightly better handle on that high E and F, but I am still inept when it comes to tonguing in this range. When playing altissimo, any movement from my mouth or jaw, however slight, will cause the note to stop speaking or result in a squeak. I can reach these higher notes (with fairly good intonation as well) progressing up the scale from a G on top of the staff, as well as starting with an air attack, but not tonguing.
Now on to my second question. The only way I can hit these high notes is, of course, by making my aperture smaller, but this causes air to leak out the sides of my mouth. While my embouchure in the lower register is more like an "o" in the higher register it becomes more of an "eee" shape (this is the only way I can get the notes to speak, I have tried experimenting with embouchure in this register with no luck). I understand air leakage is usually a sign of poor embouchure, and also your embouchure is not supposed to really change going up the register, just the pressure on the reed.
I know it is difficult to help with nothing more than a written description, but I was hoping some of you might have some insight to these issues. Thank you in advance.
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Author: ClaireAnnette
Date: 2015-06-08 00:09
Is your read strong enough that you support notes with your air?
Have you done voicing exercise going from low note and overblowing to achieve notes fingered same in higher without using register key?
Have you ascertained that ligature will allow these notes well?
Don't forget corners of mouth generally inward and tongue position are creating your appiture. Sometimes initially very slightly shifting clarinet sort of down at bell and up at mouthpiece---very slightly---momentarily---will allow the lower lip to free up Reed to jump to the higher harmonic.
Finally, convince yourself that there is no air leaking from clarinet and that barrel is not wobbly on tenons. (Most common thing I have seen!!)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-08 01:01
Squidward wrote:
> Now on to my second question. The only way I can hit these high
> notes is, of course, by making my aperture smaller, but this
> causes air to leak out the sides of my mouth. While my
> embouchure in the lower register is more like an "o" in the
> higher register it becomes more of an "eee" shape (this is the
> only way I can get the notes to speak, I have tried
> experimenting with embouchure in this register with no luck).
The advice to use an "eee" vowel shape *inside* your mouth is pretty generally offered - by brass as well as woodwind teachers. But the outer part of the embouchure, the lips around the mouthpiece, should still be "oh." Stretching the corners backward to make an "eee" with your lips should be counterproductive and easily causes an air leak.
Karl
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Author: ClaireAnnette
Date: 2015-06-08 01:18
Simplistic way to put it, but tongue is "raised" somewhat to make air column inside mouth change. Voicing. Learned one way by no register key exercise. I would bet there are some internet lessons on just that.
If you are going to "eee" probably closing jaw. He is correct about corners of mouth. Lip needs to allow Reed smaller rapid vibrations.
Physics: you are trying to jump Reed into higher vibration mode:smaller rapid vibrations.
If you put too much pressure on reed at most it will not play or squeak at least note will come very sharp (most likely).
Again, can you support notes with air (from diaphragm) or do you feel if you do this it wants to squeak/overblown? Suggest stronger read and/or bit more resistant mouthpiece. MAke sure that barrel fits tightly both ends.
One way, test different reeds and see if same result?
The higher up the notes, the more likely mouthpiece and Reed "contribute" to outcome.
Usually, for me, if I try and try and try to do something that logically I should be able to do; and I cannot. Turns out to be due to mechanical problem with clarinet. So? Now first thing at every practice, a quick pre-flight check to make sure instrument and all the components are at their best. As far as I can tell. Even if just learning, as we all are to different degrees, make sure your equipment is working at its best. Then you can start blaming yourself😀 life is too short otherwise. A lot of people waste a lot of time in this sort of thing.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-08 07:03
Ok, you mentioned two things that I am putting together the "eee" (which sounds more like a description of tensing the lips) and the "more pressure on the reed as you go up."
First take "ClaireAnnette's" suggestion to practice moving from the chalumeau to the clarion WITHOUT USING THE REGISTER KEY. To do this right (as an exercise to realize what is actually happening), play the "C" which is first ledger below staff and slur up to the "G" sitting upon the staff only by quickly pushing more air (from your gut.....NO TONGUE !!!). Once you can do this well, try other notes (usually moving from low "E" and "F" that way are the hardest).
Take THAT model and apply the AIR idea to moving from the clarion to the altissimo (of course it isn't the same fingerings any more, but it is a matter of faster air, more air).
In that way you can maintain the "oh" embouchure AND the same pressure on the reed (ideal) and only use more air.
Tony Pay posted a video of a clarinet playing machine that had automated fingers and a simple rubber bladder for an embouchure. It played fantastically even through the full range of notes on the clarinet without varying pressure on the reed one whit.
If a machine can do it, I think we can too. :-)
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-08 20:07
And I just wanted to make sure that you are not making a quick stabbing motion "toward the reed" for your "attacks." Tonguing is merely damping the reed from vibrating. You "place" the tongue on the reed and release quickly (not the other way around like a chameleon catching a fly with its tongue).
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-06-09 01:52
Squidward -
As you have found, you must not move your jaw or mouth. Instead, you need to equalize the registers.
Play a low E, forte but not ugly, and press the register key gradually, so that you don't know when you will jump to the B above. On the B, keep the depth and warmth of the chalumeau in the clarion sound. Slowly decrescendo to ppp.
Then do the same on F/C, F#/C#, G/D and Ab/Eb.
Next, play A/E and slowly leak your left finger to get altissimo C#. Once again, you should not know when the jump will happen. Carry the depth and warmth of the chalumeau and also the clarity and brilliance of the clarion in the altissimo sound. Slowly decrescendo to ppp, being careful not to squeeze or bite.
Do the same with Bb/F/D, B/F#/Eb, C/G/E, C#/G#/F, D/A/F# and Eb/Bb/G. Don't worry about the intonation on altissimo Eb, F# and G. This is just an exercise.
Once again, no jaw movement, no adam's apple movement (look in a mirror) and no change in the airstream. Keep the back of your tongue high and the front part (back of the tip) low.
Altissimo tonguing means barely touching the reed tip with the tip of your tongue, just enough to stop the sound. Then, move the tip of your tongue back to release the sound. The tongue plays NO part in starting the sound. There should be no puff of air, jaw or tongue movement or embouchure change.
It's all about keeping a good sound in your ear and minimizing physical movement.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-10 18:55
Hey Ken,
I wanted to thank you for the above exercise. I have never run into it quite like that (and it will be very beneficial for the poster ....... and my students!).
I have been zeroing in on the A/E/C# myself. As I do this, I do not use the register key and also don't move the index finger for "C#" so it comes out a quarter tone flat. Now what I do is move up and down through those notes just by changing air (granted getting the "E" in between is not easy).
Given my approach I still feel that there must be more of an air component to how we play normally, otherswise large leaps downward would be pretty much impossible.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: ClaireAnnette
Date: 2015-06-10 23:59
Ahhh...this is awkward...he described how to do it, but I believe I was the one that mentioned that exercise originally in this thread, with regard to learning voicing and tongue placement...suggesting that it could help you learn how to coordinate the required technique.
Thankless job and pay is low!😅
He did a great job of picking it up to explain the exercise.
I would have gladly described in more detail but figured you would ask back if you wanted to know. I did not want to assume you did not know that. Players are different experience levels. I do not take credit for inventing it!!! Not like Al Gore and the internet. I recall that is how I learned it way back when. But it is a bit frustrating to suggest something to help and it is just not even noticed...
And he kindly referenced me in his text (Thank you)...except it happens all the time with me...and it is sort of unintended deflation of my tremendous ego...to not be noticed lots of times...as if what I said was not even noticed...except by whoever runs with it. do think kind of like, what was my suggestion for issue you???
He described process well...that is why I gave him an "exactly"; but in this thread, "idea" to suggest the exercise as a solution for you was me. In other words, I was the diagnostician. And if it helped it would certainly make me feel very glad for you that it will help you and your students.
Oh well, it is just an internet post. I am just SO happy it has been helpful!
I will add, before this is explained by someone:-), this since you mention students (see I was paying attention!)
If you are working with a student, we know that sometimes they may have yissues coordinating the fingers with the blowing. Especially in learning the break. When this happens, those make it hard to tell what is real problem the air/tongue or the fingers, or both.
So typically the instructor turns barrel with mouthpiece 180 degrees so the front of clarinet or the keys are towardmn
the student but mouthpiece is in normal position for student to use. The teacher fingers notes as student blows. This works well to stop squeezing Reed too tightly or being scared of note as student does not know, unless teacher says, when the leap comes. They actually feel it for themselves. Also, they beginner students are always surprised (watch their faces light up when it works!) that they can play that note after all!!! So it helps to build that confidence to play in higher notes.
Later, for more advanced students that know basic theory interval concepts, you can use it to educate that clarinets overblow in 12ths, not octaves like flutes, oboes do. This becomes useful to have them "invent" possible alternate fingerings for higher notes.
You can ask them to play our middle C. Have them count up 12 (octave +4) ...it is a G. And so on. So you can ask what note the open G will play. Have them play that skip. Then have them play a regular D. See how it is same note?
This will of course help them to become more secure on altissimo. They will find it to be altissimo D! So have then learn this is indeed one alternate fingering for that D! I typically tell them to do a homework exercise to come up with their own fingerings for higher notes, using a chromatic scale. Tell them to bring and demonstrate next lesson.
This becomes a nice tool for more advanced students getting into alternates. If they have a piece of music and they cannot recall how to finger a note; they can always. Pull the "go down a twelve in their tool kit to see if the lower note gives them an idea for playing the high note!!
It is as useful as having a tool kit for estimating tempi. This trick is knowing that quarter note beat at 60 on metronome is same as second hand one tick/or digital second change of numbers on their cell phone. it takes a second to pass. OR if they can learn to count "1-and-2-and" as second pass time. So then they can guess at multiples of 60 to get faster or slower tempi. 60x2=120 . 60 /2=30. And so forth. J
Anyway, useful for knowing how to closely approximate a tempo goal for auditions. Especially for those of us that tend to rush! KThis little digression on tempo in this thread is meant to give example of some tools we can pass on. And use ourselves.
I also mentioned a wobbly barrel could contribute, so I hope you checked that out. If wobbly you can use Teflon tape around tenon cork, or Teflon type dental floss, or electrical tape inside socket. If this helps you can then get your cork beefed up. Lose causes air leakage right from get-go which. It also causes an unpredictable position change that causes movement that player can find difficult to control. Hard to control affected notes.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-06-11 00:09
ClaireAnnette -
If you're talking about my message, I can only say that I got the exercise from Keith Stein at Interlochen back in 1958.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-11 13:23
"ClaireAnnette,"
You've thrown out enough material for at least five threads!!!!
Sorry for the apparent slight, BUT Ken had detailed his response in a certain way (I've had sooooo many versions of that, but not that one).
The biggest issue to address is one of why this Board is so great. I firmly believe that having concepts addressed in different ways (like multiple photos of the same object taken at different angles and with different lighting) can be MUCH MUCH more helpful since one particular "view" of a solution may be "the one" particular way that "clicks" for a student (or me, in the above case).
I pounded away at one student for nearly a year over getting that student to engage the core when playing (I thought I'd said it in every different way possible). A friend of mine subbed one day and just said, "push with your gut." The next week that student sounded at least five time better.
IT'S NOT A SLIGHT !!!!!!
Sometimes just even hearing the same words again from someone else just finally makes it sink in.
I know I'm dense, but we all have layers of misunderstanding that need poking every once in a while.
Of course neither of you (you or Ken) have addressed what is happening COMING DOWN. It's one thing to blow against the horn and pop up to the next harmonic. It's quite another to come down in a controlled manner WITHOUT using keys. it has always been my contention that "voicing" is just addressing air speed with the tongue opposed to the abdominals (my method).
Thoughts?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: ClaireAnnette
Date: 2015-06-11 18:44
I did not go into details of exercise because I did not know if you knew of this exercise or not, so I posted more as a reminder of something to try. I figured if you wanted more you would ask. However, others jumped in and did so very well. But evidently this was an aspect that did help you, so that is great. I did not want to be disrespectful by assuming you did not know! There are all levels here.
As far as coming down.
It would be helpful to know what happens for you when you come down. There may be other factors. But I am going to assume it is related to same area we have been discussing.
Again, make sure those connections at barrel are not leaking air, or displacing your position on the reed due to wobble. In fact, no wobbly joints. So I am assuming that too is resolved.
AFTER you feel comfortable with this exercise and do it more autonatically, now think about and analyze when you are doing physically. Do not do this until you feel pretty comfortable or it might start getting in your way. So wait until things zare pretty automatic. Now, at reaching this stage you may find the going down improved as well, hand in hand.
Anyway, say it does not, what are you teaching yourself to do? Air column control, soft palate position, tongue position, and embochure that is necessary for pitch tone desired. And that is really the same process we did as baby learning to talk. This is why a lot teach in terms of vowels.
Remember the chain of the air column if you will, the air that you inhaled and now are pushing out.
It starts in lungs controlled by muscles of expiration. Many say supporting from the diaphragm. This is a muscle almond base of lungs. But in real life it is also control of voluntary (not autonomic-things that happen without your influence) muscles. Extrinsic or accessory muscles. But concept is air goes all the way to base of lungs when inhaling. At this point, you have trained the anatomical bellows to release air. Controls amount and volume basically. So we are assuming you got that part well.
Ok so air finally makes it to oral cavity. It is here that the air column is shaped to produce pitch/tone you want. This is where most people have to work quite a bit over long time of playing experience.
Now, one place you can hear this described to students is going to the Northwestern U site that has Marcellus master classes archived. If you listen to a few you can hear him telling students for tongue placement (voicing) in examples they play. What is good here is that you can hear improvement of students and hear how it improved the victim..student 's sound.
So now what to do with it all.
Well, for me, one of the best examples and learning for voicing, up and down is a study book intended for bass clarinet. It also has other techniques well explained. But can use same on regular clarinet. This is:
La Clarinette Basse
Jean Marc Volta
INTERNATIONAL MUSIC DIFFUSION
mine is 1996
Van Cott has it.
If you can get this book, it will go through example studies step by step with explanations. I can be "smartie" and tell you that you are doing same thing you did with air and tongue placement going up as going down, only reversed. That really is the case. But it sounds of sarcasm!
But this register-less exercise should mostly work in both directions. Try it on notes you can play up and down with no issues and you will notice. Also, I think when learning basics that it is practiced little crescendo up, little decrescendo down. If you do just a small amount: result is not really a crescendo to hear but REALLY you are adjusting your air column. So until you get book, you could do this.
So, see if you can get this book and try his exercises. And let us know when you "get" it. I think this would help more than getting it through a bunch of posts. PLUS, you will find a lot of other useful techniques. HIGHLY recommend!!!👏🏻
Well, place your book order and let us know!
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