 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2015-05-21 21:39
Brad Behn is sending me a trial of Ishimori Ligatures in various metal configurations.
B-flat Clarinet:
Gold-plated Copper
Brushed Satin Gold-plated Copper
Solid Silver
Solid Silver plated with Pink Gold
Brad has done a brilliant job on his website explaining the differences in the ligatures. I'm curious for Ishimori users, which one you picked, why, and what difference did you notice between the metal choices that led to your ultimate decision. Thanks for your insights.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2015-05-22 04:07
I'd like someone to do a recording project with all of the big aftermarket ligatures in a decent recording space. Do some strap ligatures, strap/metal hybrids (Vandoren Leather, Versa/Versa X), Bonade, stock 2-screw, Ishimori and Silverstein. There's a big difference between what you feel and hear up close to what you actually sound like. In fact, a well-known teacher once said not even to worry about how you sound up close, to try to practice in good spaces.
I personally play the Versa X because it's incredibly convenient and indestructible. I definitely agree with Mr. Shaw that the placebo effect on these aftermarket products (mouthpieces, ligatures, barrels, etc.)
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2015-05-22 04:31
I certainly appreciate the placebo effect, but this is a 'real' thing I'm inquiring about. I realize people are taking a lot money for a lot of nothing. Right now I'm doing some equipment upgrades (in my opinion for what constitutes an upgrade). I puchased a MoBa Backun barrel and bell. My partner (a nonmusician with an incredible ear) notice a marked difference and improvement in my tone quality. When I asked what he heard and to quantify it, I was expecting adjectives like: warmer, brighter, clearer, etc. But his comment was brilliant. He thought I sounded like I had changed the acoustics of the room and my sound was fuller and resonanted more. "I went from walmart speakers to Bang & Olufsen." I felt and heard the difference personally and immediately.
It's that experience I want to hear from other folks using the Ishimori.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-05-22 17:51
I appreciate why you’d like to hear from other Ishmori Ligature Players on which of these ligatures they play and why. If it were me, I’d want to see if there were patterns in which model people picked and why.
I don’t think though that you’re going to find such patterns with different manufacturer’s ligatures and designs, any more than if you do, would they necessarily be applicable to/concurred with by you, or any other player. I’d like to think if such patterns were the case, they’d have found their way to the bboard. Still more, to expect such patterns with 1 maker’s ligatures, whose difference lie in copper versus silver, and the couple of microns of plating on them, to my mind, is a stretch.
I’m not anti-gear or anti-Ishmori, just “pro” practicality. And that practicality tells me that if someone had come along and truly built “a better mousetrap” in the ligature space, that they’d be putting forth scientific test data of players and listeners opinions across large and “blind” sample sizes to support that.
Hiding the ligature from player and listeners to avoid bias is easily managed.
In the meantime, go with the one you like best.
I hope your Backun tests were, or prove to be reproducible over time and reeds, across numerous listeners, blind with respect to changes to the gear you tested with. Ideally, you shouldn’t even know when you’re playing with such gear for testing purposes. Barrels can certainly make a difference in play, I’m not saying otherwise, as can ligatures and bells, even if to a lesser extent; it’s just that biases need to be eliminated as much as possible for testing data to be solid.
I appreciate the clarinet community is opinionated. Still, if someone devised a ligature that was as affordable and as frequently appreciated as, say, the ATG system of reed adjustment, we’d have a “winner.”
Finally, with no disrespect to Brad Behn, I think he did the best job he could explaining a typical user’s explanation of their perceived differences among the Ishmori ligatures, but even he’d have to concede that words alone, with different connotative meanings, like “warm, colorful, crisp, centered, solid, powerful, and flexible,” are vastly subject to interpretation.
Post Edited (2015-05-22 17:53)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-05-22 18:05
The solid silver Ishimori adds the most density to the sound. The effect is similar to going from a nickel flute to a silver or platinum one. The tone is less likely to go thin or shrill. But, then again, appreciation of timbre is not universal, even among sensitive musicians. Not everyone likes more density in the sound! Some may want a more transparent "watercolor" effect. The music you are playing matters too. The ideal sound for Stravinsky's Story of a Soldier might be very different from what you want for the Brahms Trio or Sonatas or the Rossini Introduction and Variations.
Some people try the Ishimoris and go right back to the Vandoren Optimum (which I see you are playing--horizontal or vertical rail insert?) or still prefer the BG Duo (gold or silver) or even the Olegature. Some French players prefer the JLV Vignon in silver to the Ishimori in silver. Some like the muted quality of the Rovner dark. All depends how much "point" or tight focus you want to the sound versus how much "richness." And your Fobes Europa tends to give a covered, mellow, organ-like sound that is another factor in finding the right ligature match. The perfect ligature for the Fobes Europa would probably not match up as well with the Vandoren M13 (both good but very different mouthpieces).
Post Edited (2015-05-23 17:31)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-05-23 04:55
It's not clear to me why you would ask us for this information. Why do you want to inject potential (quasi "placebo effect") bias into your own testing?
In any case, just for fun, here's a little quiz. I've taken descriptions of the six different Ishimori ligatures from the Ishimori website and put them in random order. I've also taken Brad Behn's descriptions of the four Ishimori ligatures he sells from his website and put them in random order. For a fabulous no-prize, match Brad's four descriptions with the corresponding descriptions from Ishimori. I expect no cheating (unless you are somehow associated with the New England Patriots).
1. comfortable resistance and massive sound
2. moderately bright and warm sound
3. centered and warm sound
4. comfortable resistance and round sound
5. powerful and bright sound
6. rich and warm sound
a. solid in feel ... but flexible
b. biases toward a super crisp response and centered sound ... flexible in its playing experience ... rings beautifully, and it works great on all sorts of reed strengths, but its response is what makes this one shine
c. very flexible, warm and colorful ... [compared to a leather or cloth ligature] added ring, depth and security
d. the most solid in feel and sound. It is powerful and creates a superior hold on the playing experience, and it works great on lighter reeds"
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-05-23 05:02
"I'd like someone to do a recording project with all of the big aftermarket ligatures in a decent recording space. Do some strap ligatures, strap/metal hybrids (Vandoren Leather, Versa/Versa X), Bonade, stock 2-screw, Ishimori and Silverstein. "
If you will send me 5 of each ligature model from each of the manufacturers and categories you mention, I will be happy to perform the tests. I promise to use a more thorough, unbiased, and scientific test design than that which was recently reported in the journal of the Clarinet and Saxophone Society of Great Britain (and apparently also de Clarinet and who knows where else -- perhaps it's actually advertising copy masquerading as a scientific study?). I can't divulge the details of my testing process at this time but I will mention that the final step is destructinve, like the wall test for reeds, so I won't be able to return any of the ligatures provided. (Hint: The final step involves eBay.)
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: toronto_clarinetist
Date: 2015-05-23 07:58
in my opinion and many professionals, there is a difference in sound based on material. i've also played the same ligature with made with different material for non-clarinetists (blind) and they said they're able to hear a difference.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-05-24 01:52
Toronto_clarinetist: let's take at your word that materials affect sound, even intra-brand (i.e. within brand).
I'd be curious though to know if your audience (still more, other audiences) would report the same experiences as did your audience when players other than you were doing the playing--or if you prefer/additionally, when other audiences were your listeners.
I remain interested, like the OP might be, if patterns emerge, but because I'm doubtful of them, suggest the player let their own feelings guide them on purchase.
Post Edited (2015-05-24 01:54)
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