 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: harim0suprem0
Date: 2015-05-23 01:41
Hey everyone,
I was just wondering what minimum room temperature everyone
practices and performs at? You see, my flattest note on both clarinets is the low F, and I can only play it in tune at fortissimo
if I am playing at a room temperature of 22.5C or above..so does this mean I should always practice and perform at the mentioned above temperature? I have tried everything from raising my tongue position for faster air, decreasing oral cavity, tightening embrochure, putting in less/more mouthpiece, experimenting with the angle of the clarinet, and trying out different barrels but I keep getting the same outcome. Also, undercutting the tone hole isn't an option since the 2nd octave C is a little sharp.
Any sort of advice will be greatly appreciated!
Harim
NZ
Post Edited (2015-05-23 06:22)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-05-23 01:58
The lowest F is typically flat on most clarinets and apart from having the extra vent key such as on the Tosca there isn't a lot you can do about it.
The temperature you practise at should not affect that note any differently than all the other notes so unless you have perfect pitch it's the relative intonation that matters most and this should be pretty constant at all normal ranges of temperatures.
In practical playing the pitch will often vary quite consderably from one group to another anyway.
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Author: harim0suprem0
Date: 2015-05-23 02:37
Hi Norman,
Thank you very much for your input. I have actually experimented with playing at different temperatures, and found that the low F is actually impossible to get in tune at all at 21C or lower unless you play it at piano or even softer. I have asked this question to a good friend of mine who is an excellent clarinettist, and he told me that even 22C maybe quite low. And I have done some research, and found that professional orchestras also have minimum temperature of their performance venue, and if that is not reached, they don't need to perform and must still be payed in full. And I do get that relative intonation is important in very fast passages, but what if your playing a slow passage and the low F is exposed and must be played at forte or even louder? And I already know that some clarinets have vents to raise the pitch of the low F, but as I have already mentioned, people tell me that the room I'm playing in should at least be 23C and at that temperature I can play the low F in tune at fortissimo anyway. I know this seems like I'm overreacting to a small issue, but I'm trying raise the quality of my clarinet playing to its very best.
Post Edited (2015-05-23 03:34)
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2015-05-23 03:09
Temperature changes produce changes in the velocity of sound of about 1% for a 10 Degree F. change. This will cause the clarinet to be out of tune with itself, not correctable with a barrel.
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Author: harim0suprem0
Date: 2015-05-23 03:42
Ahhh that clears up alot of things. I was discussing the relationship between barrel length and intonation with a good friend of mine, and he told me that his 65 is flatter than his 66! I was really confused, but I can understand why that is now thanks Richard.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-23 04:40
Ok, someone please correct me (and I need correcting a lot these days), but I am getting more and more confused with this topic.
The louder you play (low notes anyway), the lower the pitch. This is because the greater volume of air usually is accompanied by a slight relaxing of the embouchure and this will allow the note to "sag."
Also, as long as the barrels you (or your friend) are using are the same bore diameter, the 1mm longer barrel would bring DOWN the pitch five cents or so.
Colder relative temperature can be circumvented by changing out to a shorter barrel (or higher pitched mouthpiece......such as switching from Vandoren 13 Series to a Standard Vandoren version of the same mouthpiece such as a 5RV Lyre).
I prefer to have the clarinet play a bit higher in general, forcing ME to bring the pitch DOWN (slightly) to be at pitch. This mode of tuning allows me to have more easily accessible tuning options and may be more what your friend is getting at. The Boehm clarinet IS designed to ride a little low for the low "E" and "F" and be slightly high for the corresponding 12ths above.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-05-23 06:00
richard smith wrote:
> Temperature changes produce changes in the velocity of sound of
> about 1% for a 10 Degree F. change. This will cause the
> clarinet to be out of tune with itself, not correctable with a
> barrel.
Just to be clear and avoid confusion, I assume you mean the *frequency* of the sound (waves) and not the *velocity* of the air itself as it moves through the bore from the mouthpiece to its exit?
Karl
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Author: harim0suprem0
Date: 2015-05-23 06:18
Hi Paul,
Yes I think your correct when you say that the the pitch lowers as you play louder as the muscles around the cheeks loosens up since it can't stand up to the pressure of the air inside.
I used to think that about barrel length as well until my friend told me that his opinion was that the length doesn't matter as he owns a 65 that is flatter than his 66 (he literally meant that by the way). I'm not sure if both of his barrels are of the same bore diameter, I will have to confirm that with him later. He said that if I get a 64 mm to fix my issue, then the intonation of the entire clarinet will be ruined. Which makes sense as the notes that are the sharpest on my clarinets would be nearly impossible to lower back down to normal pitch.. He is a very well known and excellent clarinetist, so I trust his advice fully.
The only thing I haven't tried yet is trying out a different mouthpiece, but I highly doubt that there is an issue with it. My former teacher chose that mouthpiece for me (a Backun Legend), and tried it out with my current setup. He is very fussy about intonation being a professional orchestral player, and he didn't find any issues with that mouthpiece. I'll give your advice a try anyhow.
Many thanks,
Harim
NZ
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-05-23 08:00
Enlarging the tone hole will sharpen both the F and the C. However, undercutting the interior end of the tone hole can raise the low F with minimal change of the C. This is not a theory but it is common practice in tuning of a clarinet. Undercutting can also help raise the low register octave higher first space F with minimal change to the high C. An expert clarinet tuner can help with this if you can find one. Good luck!
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2015-05-23 08:50
It is true that some orchestras have temperature clauses in their contracts, but it is not always the larger orchestras that have them, and when such clauses exist it is not for primarily purposes of pitch, it is for comfort and safety of instruments. One orchestra I used to play in had a lower limit of 63F, which is about 17C, and an upper limit of 95F, or 35C. Dealing with temperature is just part of the deal -- when it's cold it's hard to get up to pitch, when it's hot it's hard to get down to pitch.
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Author: harim0suprem0
Date: 2015-05-23 09:54
Oh right, didn't know that. I have actually slightly fixed this issue now, I just tried out some other barrels a few hours ago and found another 65 that seems to raise the low F by a few hertz than the other barrels. The current barrel I'm using allows me to play my low F and E at a temperature of around 20C...
Anyway thanks for the advice, I'll see if that option is a possibility down here in NZ. And thanks for correcting me J!
Post Edited (2015-05-23 11:21)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-05-23 22:42
I thought that the biggest determinant of temperature on wind pitch was the density of the air.
Hot air is less dense than cold air and so all else being equal causes a faster vibration hence higher pitch.
Compare to say violin, all strings have same length and fairly similar tension but the E string being less dense (lower mass) vibrates much faster than the heavy G string.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-24 01:55
Thanks for that Norman. That's the best analogy I've heard about pitch and air temperature.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Mirko996
Date: 2015-05-25 12:54
Depend the weather, so:
If there's cold the notes, especially the high notes (but not altissimo notes) for example C6 they are out of tune than normal (for example in winter)
When is summer the notes are up of tune and they shouldn't create some problem in high notes and low register is hot.
For play clarinet the temperature in my opinion should be near 18° - 26° but i play in concert with 30° and i haven't problem... Down 18° in my opinion the notes are going to be out of tune.
So the temperature of room should be 20° but are my opinion
Post Edited (2015-05-25 12:58)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-05-26 19:42
Just to keep things the same when I am checking tuning, I keep a thermometer stuck to my old Korg AT-12s. I try to get the practice room at close to 72 degrees F.
Of course, in real life, we seem to be always burning up or freezing ... rarely ideal temperatures.
I ran a calibration lab for electronic (not musical) instruments and we always closely regulated the temperature. Just a habit.
BTW, the low F on the Ridenour Lyrique Speranza and Libertas is not flat, and they have no additional vents or keys to accomplish this. How? I haven't a clue, but it's true. I suspect the sonority was very slightly compromised to do this. I will say that the lowest of the chalumeau register hasn't the tendency to "honk" like many other designs. I like like that ... smooth sailing from top to bottom of the instrument.
Tom
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-26 20:44
Tom,
You're right on the mark about the trade-off of resonance. One of Tony Pay's last posts referred to that very thing and the "resonance points" of the horn. I certainly do NOT know the details so I bow out of the discussion at this point.
I have also run into a brand of horn (Uebel) that has a wonderfully in-tune first space "F." And some how this does NOT make the "C" second ledger above the staff sharp......I have no idea how they do that!
.............Paul Aviles
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