 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-05-12 16:52
Thw resurrection of the old thread on music that's physically difficult to play reminds me of another type of difficult music: the kind where the composer gives the clarinet about half a billion bars of rest, in between itty-bitty but important solos. The challenge: stay awake and count (and count and count and count and count and count...), in case the conductor doesn't cue the entrance. It's not so bad in familiar music, but sight-reading and then learning an unfamiliar score constructed that way -- cue primal scream!
The string players never seemed to have this problem. Composers keep those folks nice and busy. No, we windbags are the ones tempted to bring crossword puzzle books to rehearsal. I remember having to cope with parts like those back (way back) in high school orchestra but I'm having a senior moment when trying to remember which scores drove me nuts in that particular way. Anybody?
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-12 17:50
For me it has always been something of a miracle for my count to work out. I try to blame the music- "the counts aren't right!" And on the initial tries nobody else knows what they're doing either, so the conductor and other players aren't helping much.
So... anybody else count their way to a big solo part- and either be too timid to actually play it even though you were right, or play it confidently at the wrong time? Anybody found the measure counts were misleading?
It is SO HELPFUL for parts to have some cues in them- bless them. Like... 58 measures of rest, then "LETTER B" that you know is a big chorus so you can verify you're at the right place before continuing with another 44 measures of rest and then your big part. Even better is you learn the oboe entrance is 12 measures before you, but what if the oboist got it wrong? And might it be better to sync with the (wrong) oboist?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-12 19:20
Ha!!!
This reminds me of college when we played Debussy's Nocturns and the tuba player actually fell asleep at some point before his 'only' entrance. The conductor flew into a rage ending with the statement,"You know, you are NOT the only tuba player in Chicago!"
To this day I write in notes of entrances of other instruments at the appropriate counts all along the path to an entrance that is a long way off. This system never fails and helps during stops and starts in rehearsals (and you learn the music better as well).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-12 19:27
I recently played in Haydn's Creation mass and fortunately I was doubling on both 2nd clarinet and 2nd oboe, so I had far more playing time compared to the 1st clarinet who was sat there twiddling her thumbs during all the tacet sections. I have nodded off during long periods of rest before when playing just clarinet or oboe in this.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-12 19:55
Does frantic whispering happen in professional settings, or just amateur? I mean like, "What measure number?", or "Is this 2nd time through?".
And falling asleep and missing an entrance is bad enough, what about falling down- or snoring?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-05-12 20:01)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-12 20:15
Professionals don't frantically whisper! (he says indignantly)
We look at another with a quizzical expression and then both of us miss our entrance :-)
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-12 21:48
It's much easier to keep your place in music when rehearsal letters are placed at the beginnings of melodic units. So, if you hear something changing in the texture or melody or a cadence finishes, a rehearsal letter or number conforms your count. Not that you stop counting the rest, but it's added security. It drives me a little nuts when pieces (many by Copland, for example) have markings every 10 bars, which have no relationship to the music's structure.
Marking major entrances of other instruments can take the place of melodic cues where they aren't included.
Another related thing that drives me a little crazy is when my rest begins a couple of bars after another player's rest and I hear him or her (usually, for some reason, him) counting *his* rest *out loud.* The take away is, whatever you do, try not to count out loud. Even a whisper can be heard by players near you, and their count may be different from yours.
Karl
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2015-05-12 21:57
Yes, I once fell asleep during a long rest in the Lord of the Rings symphonic stuff. I whispered to the principal, "Tommy, where are we? I fell asleep." He said, "I don't know, I fell asleep too."
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Author: marcia
Date: 2015-05-12 22:28
>The string players never seemed to have this problem. Composers keep >those folks nice and busy.
I was at my orchestra rehearsal and one of the second fiddle players asked the conductor this question-- "Can you please cue us, we have 8 bars rest and can't be bothered counting it". We wind bags just about fell off our chairs laughing!
![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-05-12 22:49
A Famous Story: Fritz Kreisler and Sergei Rachmaninoff frequently played together. Kreisler once got lost during a piano interlude and whispered, "Rachmaninoff, where are we?" Rachmaninoff replied, "In Carnegie Hall."
Ken Shaw
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-12 22:59
It isn't only players with long rests who can fall asleep, at least figuratively. Conductors, who rarely have any rests at all (except during the cadenzas of big Classical and Romantic concertos) can sometimes be lulled into inattention by long swaths of harmonically, rhythmically and dynamically static stretches and completely miss the big change when it happens.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-12 23:11
I heard something that made my blood boil a while back - a trumpet player in the band I once played in said he saw the 1st player pick his trumpet up to start playing, so he insisted he 'had to' as well and insisted the rest of the trumpet section 'had to' too, even though they were all 8 bars early.
He said it's better to come in wrong as a whole section rather than just letting one of them come in wrong and then started banging on about team work.
If I was in his shoes, I'd have just let the 1st trumpet come in in the wrong place just to dent his ego and to not let him get away with not counting.
So it seems some trumpet players can't even be bothered to count either.
This threw us in the saxes out as we then had to start playing earlier than expected and in a state of panic as we weren't ready (as we still had what we thought was plenty of time before we needed to be in again) and then hope the rhythm section cottoned on as to where we now were in the piece so it didn't all fall apart.
I'm guilty as charged as accidentally miscounting long lengths of bar rests, sometimes forgetting and counting in 4 instead of 2 or vice versa and then getting hopelessly lost and asking the player next to me where we are and sometimes just by being distracted by something else of interest going on in the music, but I don't insist in dragging the section along with me if I did.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-05-12 23:14
For those who remember the old Mutt and Jeff comic strip, there was a great one (I think from the 70s) that I should have saved. It might be available somewhere online, but I couldn't find it.
In this particular Sunday strip, Jeff is a cymbal player in an orchestra, and he has hundreds of measures of rests before his big crash. He dashes out a side stage door (while the orchestra is performing), races down the street to a restaurant, and orders a cup of coffee. He drinks his coffee, and then hustles back to the concert hall, counting measures the entire time. He arrives back on stage and crashes his cymbals at the moment the correct measure comes.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-12 23:26
I played cymbals recently in 'Roman Carnival Overture' - there was a long section where myself and the other percussion players were resting for well over 40 bars and we all collectively missed our next entry after it as we all miscounted (but fortunately we didn't come in in the wrong place!). So they didn't get the timps, cymbals, triangle or tambourine crash on that entry at all, but they did 8 bars later and from then onwards.
Problem with loud percussion is there's nowhere to hide if you do come in in the wrong place, so it's probably better not coming in at all rather than being wrong.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-12 23:57
In a generation it'll all be electronic "paper" (think big Kindles) and something will highlight where you are in the music. Still won't keep people from falling asleep. Though I guess you could rig a cattle prod for 20 sec before your solo.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2015-05-13 03:54
I play English horn in one orchestra, and often sub in on clarinet or oboe/English horn in a few others. I OFTEN have moments of where I'm just sitting there "napping".
During my DMA coursework, I played Principal Oboe in the wind ensemble. We were premiering a lot of new pieces as part of the CBDNA Festival, and for some reason, the composers often left me out of the mix. I'd look around and EVERYONE except myself and the second oboist and or English horn player was playing. My part was highly marked with cues that would wake me up. At one point, the second flutist noticed that I had my head down, and knew that my solo was coming up in about 20 measures...she started getting worried. My cue was about 16 bars out from my solo, and arose and played the solo like I was never napping. She asked me after rehearsal if I had really fallen asleep, and I told her about my part and the 60-80 measures of rest at a time in a slow tempo. She began to check at every rehearsal and was amazed that I knew the music well enough to wake up for each entrance.
This often happens when I play English horn in orchestras. I just played Mahler 2, and I only played in the 5th movement. I actually stayed awake for the performance, but would constantly zone out. I also had a book on my tablet on my stand. We played New World Symphony in my main orchestra a couple of years ago, and they took the EH solo out and made it a separate part. The great part about that is that, those moments where I finally get to play, everything stops to listen to me! :-D
Honestly, playing clarinet is a breeze because I'm usually playing, but playing EH is like playing low brass...I'll sit for most of the time, but when I enter...You know I'm there!
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2015-05-13 04:06
OMG......... Currently doing Pines of Rome Appian Way band version.
Not in until section C but on eefer. Fairly cool at first, then flutter tonguing in altissimo......... Then the heavens let rip with difficult rhythms and 7'er runs fairly high.... but it then absolutely kicks ass and builds like nothing else.
Some fab prolonged trills too. Hey love it and hate it all at the same time....... when it is right it is absolutely incredible :-)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-05-13 04:59
"In a generation it'll all be electronic "paper" (think big Kindles) and something will highlight where you are in the music."
Pieces on Smartmusic do this today.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-13 05:57
...and all of you 20 and 30 yr olds will one day be grumpy old timers saying, "In my day we had REAL music, on real PAPER, and we had to COUNT measures. And we had clarinets that required WORK to play in tune. And real REEDS without computer chips or micromechanical devices in them, that had to be BROKEN IN."
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-05-13 12:22
kdk wrote:
...
> Another related thing that drives me a little crazy is when my
> rest begins a couple of bars after another player's rest and I
> hear him or her (usually, for some reason, him) counting *his*
> rest *out loud.*
...
When I was a kid playing in the county schools orchestra the clarinet player next to me used to deliberately count the rests out loud but wrongly. 1234, 3234, 5234, 7234. It threw me every time.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-05-13 23:50
kdk wrote:
> Another related thing that drives me a little crazy is when my rest begins a couple of bars after another player's rest and I hear him or her (usually, for some reason, him) counting *his* rest *out loud.*>
Oh, yeah, been there -- and people who count aloud tend to be the ones with no sense of rhythm, so they beat time with their heavily-shod feet, too. CLUNK, bonk bonk bonk, gradually mutating to CLUNK, bonky ump guhthunk, clunk-CLUNK! gunky-thump ... sometimes punctuated with sotto voce cuss words.
>It's much easier to keep your place in music when rehearsal letters are placed at the beginnings of melodic units.>
Yes -- and when the composer separates long tacets into units divided by the rehearsal letters, as 18 bars rest, letter B, 16 bars rest, letter C, and so on. But I kept getting those scores with long rests as horizontal I-beams sufficient to serve as ceiling joists, with large numbers over them. Naturally the conductor would stop the orchestra, give some instructions to the people who actually had things to play, then say, "Take it from letter G." Okay, letter G -- that's somewhere between the F marked in my music and the J marked after the tacet....
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-14 03:56
I can't remember what piece it was we were playing (it was an early 20th Century French concert band piece), but all the multirests were in blocks of five bar segments, so going across the musical phrasing. This made us count though, but it was annoying. I recently had a 16 bar multirest in a swing number cut into three five bar sections with a single bar rest at the end of it instead of just a 16 bars multirest which I wouldn't have to count - but this was to do with how Sibelius laid things out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-05-14 21:31
Put all of your energy into playing the rests, with the same concentration and sense of duty and urgency as when the instrument is in you mouth. Don't depend on anyone else, but it's good if your section members count as well, and you communicate and give each other confidence in the count.
If you get a conductor with lousy or inconsistent technique, especially in showing you where "one" is ... it makes for a more nervous experience.
Be sure and add musical cues at spots and divide the rests into smaller chunks
with aural cues.
Any trombone players out their that has played the Beethoven 9th?
Tom
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-14 21:35
To be totally truthful, I count on my fingers as well as in my head (in fives - the 6th measure is 1 finger, as is 11, etc.). The two counts either confirm each other or warn me that I've messed one of them up and had better find out where we are.
Karl
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Author: marcia
Date: 2015-05-14 21:45
I also use fingers as well as counting in my head. When there is a discrepancy, it is usually the fingers that are correct.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-14 22:40
Why not take off your shoes and use your toes also?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-14 22:56
Sleeping is only a misdemeanor, snoring is a far more serious offense.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-14 23:03
I don't know- sleeping got punished pretty severely in the news this week. Coffee stocks are moving up.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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