 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-04 06:01
As often as I object on the BB to others' suggesting ATG is the greatest thing since sliced bread, or the single answer to every reed adjustment need, I do use it in some situations.
Lately, I've been trying to solve a small annoyance with my old version of the ATG block, the difficulty of attaching the sandpaper securely. I've tried a couple of different ways with varying degrees of success.
My latest attempt was to cut the paper to the exact size and shape of the pads and attach it with rubber cement. It worked well, as far as securely attaching the paper is concerned. But I discovered there was a serious downside - the edges of the paper, now exposed in the plane of the reed tip, sometimes actually caught on the edge of the reed. I wrecked two or three reeds before I decided this wasn't a good solution. The rounded edge of the paper when you fold it over the side of the block in fact protects the reed tip as the rounded corner slides over the edge of the reed instead of snagging on it.
I just thought I'd warn anyone else who has thought of trying this. Maybe I'm the only one bothered by having to hold the paper to the sides as I use the block.
My new solution (actually an older one that I had discarded) is to rubber-cement the papers' edges to the sides of the block. It seems to work well, just takes a little extra time to wait for the cement to set before assembling the paper to it.
Karl
Post Edited (2015-05-04 06:21)
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2015-05-04 06:28
My ATG came with a thick rubber band (similar to what comes with broccoli) and it holds the paper in place really well. I would imagine the broccoli band would do the trick. You could use one band to hold the paper to one side of the block then another rubber band to hold the paper on the other side. Thanks for the warning!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-05-04 06:35
Honestly, I see and use the value of the ATG as the ideas, book, and DVD. The block I threw out as soon as that first paper went out. Buy some sandpaper and cut it into about 1 inch by 2 inch strips. Wrap around your index finger and use that in the same manner you would have the block, and it'll work perfectly fine.
The rubber cement and think rubber band might work for you, but sandpaper is cheap and plentiful if you just want to buy a sheet, cut it, and use it.
I really like the info and thought that in itself was where the money was well spent.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2015-05-04 06:40
Instead of messing around with rubber cement, try using spray adhesive.
Sold in the craft aisle of any major store.
...GBK
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-05-04 09:14
I use double sided carpet tape on the one I have at home. The one I use at work I pretty much hold the paper in place with thumb and middle finger because I keep forgetting to take my tape with me. It works well enough.................I also have wrapped sandpaper around my finger, and it works pretty well that way as well.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-05-04 13:12
I'm going to have to admit to being befuddled by this thread. Perhaps the design has been improved over time? (I've had the ATG less than a year. )
I use it as directed, with the one aforementioned supplied "broccoli band" securely and easily holding a piece of sand paper on either side of the block. I did find that it worked best if I used the pre-cut papers I was replacing as templates for cutting new ones. Creasing the new pieces somewhat where they overlap the edges helps to keep them in position when adding the band. It's really easy and quick, and it would never occur to me to get adhesives involved.
What am I missing?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-04 17:09
Each to his own taste. I don't like to have to hold the abrasive in place - mildly arthritic fingers may give me more reason not to want to press on the edges of the paper as I move the block.
As to the design of the block, mine is old enough to have been a first-generation version. It didn't come with rubber bands, although I've read about their use in later versions. I don't know if mine is shaped or sized differently from newer ones.
You probably aren't missing anything. I just like the paper to be attached and stable.
Karl
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-05-04 18:38
I always thought that the rubber pads on the block together with the tension of the paper around the edge somehow leads to a special distribution of sanding force on the reed, which is part reason for why the ATG would be superior to normal sanding by hand.
Regards
Peter
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2015-05-04 18:42
3" x 1 1/2" x 5/8" are the measurements of my two-year-old block.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-04 21:07
I am also of the impression that the shape of the block allows the abrasive to act more heavily a bit back from the very tip of the reed. Some here have expressed the fear that continued ATG treatment would thin the tip excessively. I thought so too at first, but I found that if I hold the block as instructed, my reed tips remain a good thickness even through repeated adjustments.
I had to learn yet again (with my XY chromosomes) to reread and follow instructions. Especially if things are not working as promised. Some things never change.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-04 22:38
fskelley wrote:
> I am also of the impression that the shape of the block allows
> the abrasive to act more heavily a bit back from the very tip
> of the reed. Some here have expressed the fear that continued
> ATG treatment would thin the tip excessively.
This has been my reservation about using ATG exclusively. You aren't cutting into the cane only at the leading edge of the block - the rest of the abrasive follows. I realize in theory the taper of the reed should lift the sanding surface up and off the tip, but I have tested this by penciling over the tip and then running the block over it to see if the pencil marks would survive. They didn't. Keep in mind, too, that you can remove more material the farther back on the taper you go. The amount that you can - in some cases must - remove from a point 1/4-inch from the tip to affect vibrancy may easily be enough to destroy the tip.
> I thought so too
> at first, but I found that if I hold the block as instructed,
> my reed tips remain a good thickness even through repeated
> adjustments.
My ATG came with really minimal printed instructions. I found the video, when I got around to watching it (I delayed because it has to be viewed in real time), much more helpful, but I don't remember that Tom made much of a deal about how to hold the block. He does go into some detail about how to hold the reed. But I've recently watched what must be newer videos that he has posted on YouTube, and he seems to make a point of saying that using the block is more or less technique-free. He even demonstrates working with his eyes closed (which still baffles me - when I try that I'm as likely to miss the reed entirely).
What does he say in the instructions you have about holding the block?
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-04 23:27
Hi Karl,
My comments were perhaps not precise, sorry. I was really talking about the video, which I found I needed to review after a while and correct things I had begun doing my own way. In particular I was not being careful to hold the block snugly against the glass while sanding- whether he says to do that I don't recall- so I was allowing it to tilt toward the reed too much, which changes how it acts. Also, I realized why Tom has you limit the travel of the block with your thumb for some of the techniques- that should prevent much material from being removed from the tip.
I can't answer why your pencil marks would be removed- perhaps it's only a question of the tip getting less abrasion than further in. I only know I have reeds I've adjusted softer a full grade or more, that still have plenty of tip thickness. And before I fixed my technique, I'd regularly ruin the tips and have to trim. (I still trim, just not every reed and not frequently.)
The book I got contains much more detail than the videos (I may not have seen them all). And I have not yet had the patience to go really deep into the advanced techniques- though that might well alleviate some of my current struggles. Each of us has to decide where to spend the time, energy, and $ at our disposal. Sometimes we choose wisely, sometimes poorly.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-05 02:19
I thought you could just put a white hood over your head like Tom does, use the device and ta da, a great playing reed. At least that is what his youtube video advertises. So simple a blind person can do it.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2015-05-05 03:18
As this is the 2nd or 3rd time the video in question has been misrepresented I feel the need to respond.
In no way do we advertise the absurd idea of "just put a towel over your head and ta da....finished reed"; it's an outlandish interpretation and quite insulting. The video repeatedly makes mention of the product as a "system". The last thing Tom says in the video is something to the effect of "....using the ATG reed finishing system techniques". I believe it should be obvious to anyone that their is an informational side to the product. If not; theirs several other youtube video's Tom has posted on the ATG system that would surely make it obvious. And if it still isn't clear than I would hope the repeated mentions of "learning the ATG reed finishing techniques" on our website.
Are we supposed to teach people how to use it on our youtube videos and just give it away? Considering that countless top level players, the who's who of the clarinet world in many respects, have voluntarily endorsed the ATG system (we don't pay anyone for endorsements) publicly I think we would be selling the product rather short.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2015-05-05 03:19)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-05 07:20
Ted Ridenour wrote:
> As this is the 2nd or 3rd time the video in question has been
> misrepresented I feel the need to respond.
>
> In no way do we advertise the absurd idea of "just put a towel
> over your head and ta da....finished reed"; it's an outlandish
> interpretation and quite insulting.
Ted, I agree with you the idea is absurd, but that's the clear impression that video makes. Maybe Tom was having a little but of fun when he did that part of the demonstration, but it makes the whole process look fail-safe and slightly mindless, which can't be what he wanted to convey. I wouldn't - couldn't - do anything to a reed with my eyes closed and expect anything to come of it but disaster. So, I'm not sure why Tom included that in the video that we're discussing.
> Are we supposed to teach people how to use it on our youtube
> videos and just give it away?
I'm not sure what this means. Tom has chosen to post the videos and could, presumably, withdraw them (but I don't know how easy it is to do that on YouTube) if he likes. You don't give the block away, or the written instructions. No one here has asked that you give anything away.
Anyway, my original post had to do with securing the abrasive to the block. I know you've answered this question before, I think, by suggesting rubber bands, as others in this thread have. Apparently, that's how the newer ATG blocks are designed. I have an old one that doesn't seem to have anywhere at the ends to anchor the rubber bands - the ends are diagonal - I think 45 degrees - to the flat surfaces that hold the abrasive. I can't find a way to mount the rubber bands so they don't just ride down the slanted ends and fall off. Can you help me with this? Neither double-sided tape nor the rubber cement I've tried this week will hold the edges of the paper down, leaving me no other way than to hold the edges of the paper with my thumb on one side and one or two fingers on the other.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Karl
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2015-05-05 07:58
Karl,
I wasn't addressing anything you said as I have no issue with it. I strongly disagree with the idea that the video is saying that the ATG system involves nothing but tools and is as simple as switching on a light. I think Tom's idea was to show what the system is capable of if the finishing and testing techniques are learned and applied. The instructional aspect is at minimum implied in the blindfold video and stated expressly in other videos and on our website. Following the testing methods and finishing techniques included with the ATG system, based on your posts I'm not sure what you have in that regard as some very early versions of the system were not as robust, countless players have learned to finish adjust/improve their reeds. Can they do it with their eyes closed? I don't know. I bet many could but that's not really relevant. We get emails quite regularly from players reporting near immediate success using the ATG system. The point is that numerous players have been able to improve the overall quality of their reeds by leaps and bounds following the testing methods and adjustment techniques laid out in the DVD and booklet. Theirs no way the system would keep selling if it wasn't extremely effective as we have no paid endorsers, no dealer network to speak, of no marketing campaign for it (youtube videos is the entirety of that).
The block your using along with the scotch double stick method of adhering the abrasive was done away with in 08' or 09' (can't recall). If you'd like to send us an email we'd be more than happy to help address the issue your having adhering the abrasive to the block.
Ted R.
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2015-05-05 08:13)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-05 16:26
Tom Ridenour wrote:
> The block your using along with the scotch double stick method
> of adhering the abrasive was done away with in 08' or 09'
> (can't recall). If you'd like to send us an email we'd be more
> than happy to help address the issue your having adhering the
> abrasive to the block.
>
> Ted R.
>
I will. Thanks, Ted.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-05-05 21:07
The receipe that I've found that works is :
* use of the size block Roxann described, with readily available
* Staples #84 rubber bands (3.5" X 1/2")...(product: 18212).
As an existing ATG owner, perhaps the Ridenour's will sell you this size block.
Sure Staples won't sell you less than 1/4 lb. of these bands, but the purchase is less than $4.
This block size/rubber band configuration is not only optimimized, but so too is the conversion of a single 8.5" X 11" piece of Klingspor PS11 wet/dry sandpaper into 16 equal sheets that fit the sanding block just right with room for the rubber band to grab the excess.
That said, I'm with alexi on the ATG technique being more valuable than the tool (not to sell short the tool's novel design). I'm just as content using the techniques on a Vandoren Reed Resurfacer, whose etched glass doesn't have to be changed like sandpaper. And I suspect I would be no less content using a glass nail file, if I didn't want to pay for the Vandoren name.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-06 02:34
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> That said, I'm with alexi on the ATG technique being more
> valuable than the tool (not to sell short the tool's novel
> design).
I also think - and said more than once when ATG began to be discussed here, that the original video was by far the most valuable part of the kit. The printed instructions were on the vague side and the tool seemed (deceptively as I've since discovered) simple. The video was very instructive and much more explicit than the printed material. The online videos add a good deal more.
Karl
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-06 10:23
Tom,
Here is the link for the hooded ATG video you posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MBpL-h2dfk
One of your comments under the video is: Actually, the skills are neither mad nor are they skills. Then you go on to talk about a method. That is not mentioned in the video, and the video gave me the impression that I could put a towel over my head, and adjust a crummy reed within a few minutes without looking just as you did. The video struck me as a sales tool to sell your product, and show how easy and fast it was to use. You did not hold up any method books, videos, or explain that they needed to be studied first before you could adjust a reed like you did in the video. It does not matter to me how many experts in the clarinet field rave about a product, I took the video at face value and there seems to be a great deal more involved than you show on the video which strikes me as deceptive. It should be noted that I have bought some of your products, I like them, and am glad you are out there trying to make life better for us. Perhaps the video seemed like a good idea at the time, but to me it does not represent what you are selling, and splitting the fine points of the difference between skills and methods is a very fine one to retreat to.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2015-05-06 10:47
If that's how you interpreted the video I'm not sure what to say. I don't know how one comes to that conclusion. Tom makes mention of the item being a system and that if you use the "finishing techniques", a technique is typically something that has to learned, you can get great results. The product is primarily informational in nature.
The point of the video is showing how effective the system can be once learned. Why does one video have to represent in fine detail what is being sold? I personally think based on the language, words like system and technique, Tom used that one could infer that theirs more to the system but even if not.....to order the product anywhere that I can think of one has to go to a website, ours or a few other online sellers, that gives a crystal clear picture of what the system is. While I don't think the video would fall into this category, for reasons stated above, I see advertisements every day that serve to get people interested and seek out more information.
I personally think it's really bizarre to attack a products credibility, comparing it to generic laundry detergent in the past I believe, when you've never actually used it. If that offends I'm sorry but I find it reckless to bash a product when you've never actually used it.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-06 11:58
Hold on there cowboy. You are making some wild allegations. It is not only me who viewed the hooded video and got that impression, but others who have seen it and talked about it. I am giving you my impression of the demo he did hooded which is pretty bizarre, and Tom never holds up any book, video, DVD or anything thing else that is needed when he did that video. Anyone can sell anything, but if you do a video like that at least be honest and show what else is involved in being able to be the hooded reed adjuster. I never talked about laundry detergent, and you seem very defensive. Going on the attack at me and others is not the way to convey honesty and integrity in selling a product, and this is about sales. I have not attacked the integrity of the product or ever compared it to generic laundry detergent, so I think you owe me an apology. Take a stress pill and settle down. We are just talking about a reed adjusting product here, and there is no need for personal attacks on me or others.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2015-05-06 16:10
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=419041&t=418960
Attacking this product has been an ongoing practice. That thread is an example that comes to mind.
The instructional aspect of the system is implied, what else would "using the technique" mean, in the video.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-05-06 16:32
Mr. Ridenour,
I was the person who posted a post onto the Clarinet BBoard to see what the clarinet community thought about the ATG and whether I should get it.
Specifically, I was trying to get information about the effectiveness of the system so I could make a decision regarding it.
The thread got blown out of hand by others while I tried to keep it on course.
Please note my comments on it carefully.
I am sorry that you misinterpreted the thread as "attacking the product."
Right now, I have the ATG system, and I am a proud user.
I would like to ask for you to consider carefully the thread's posts again before jumping to a conclusion that it "attacks the product."
Thanks,
Nathan Pavlovsky
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-05-06 17:11
I wonder if my impression of ATG would have been more like Wisco99’s if I had seen the video before owning the product or knowing the Ridenour’s integrity in the market space. I expressly don’t speak to what Wisco99 knew before watching the video as I simply don’t have the knowledge here to comment on that.
I’d like to think that my reaction to the video without such prior 411 would have been to search the Ridenour website for more information (and perhaps with more skepticism) where exactly what’s being sold is, I think, spelled out—but who knows. Good sales pitches often leave out detail to more entice interest (or finish in the allotted time) than hide product limitation (and sadly, for some non-Ridenour wares vice versa.) Would more 411 here have led to happier prospective buyers and/more sales? I don’t know if, and/or how much.
In fairness to Wisco99, the critique was more about the video than underlying product. In fairness to Ted, it’s hard to tease out one from the other; particularly when your products have been subject to scrutiny before, some of which, I believe, less than fair.
Rather than speak for others, (except in RCP's defense) I know that for me it's far easier to critique a system than create it.
I hope those who own and use the system were not Tom’s intended audience here, nor would the fact that Tom effected the techniques without visual reference be that remarkable to them, only prospective buyers. I’m of the belief that while sight plays an important role here, it can be substituted quite well for feel and touch. And like many others, I also believe that ATG is a great product, not that Wisco99 said otherwise, from a great company.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2015-05-06 17:56
Nathan,
We had no issue with your question. I've contacted you off the board to clarify. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-05-06 18:25
What a mountain out of a molehill ... geez people, it's just a little advertising video.
Karl wonders about his block and sandpaper (and gets a couple of answers that are probably going to satisfy his problem), and you have to go after a video that sure as hell wasn't misleading to >99% of the people who see it.
If you believe you've been misled because you wore a hood over your head while balancing a reed with the ATG system, get your money back.
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-06 22:27
Ted,
You are making assumtions when you say: "The instructional aspect of the system is implied, what else would "using the technique" mean, in the video."
Nothing could be further from the truth when I viewed it, and when friends of mine viewed it. I gathered nothing from the video that an instructional aspect with other method books or videos were required. It just came off as a video to sell or demo a product, and was so easy to use that you did not even need to look at a reed. I have never tried the ATG system, so how can I attack it? I just referred to a video that Tom released on youtube. I did not attack anything.
I have bought some other products that Tom sells and was happy with them, but I did have one very bad experience with his thumb rest. I contacted him by phone and asked if it would fit my R13, and if there would be any problem with it fitting in the case and closing it. Tom assured me there would not be a problem. Guess what, there was no way I could close the case with it on. It had to be removed each time and that was quite obvious once I had it. When I told Tom about this in a email I received a very nasty response from him. It was beyond rude. There seems to be a problem when any Ridenour products are questioned or criticized in any manner. That seems to still be the case.
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