 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-17 18:28
I completely get the use tuning rings can have in allowing the user to reproduce a particular spacing distance. (This even includes less common mouthpiece, as opposed to barrel tuning rings.) I complete get that they also help in not compromising this space as players sometimes hold a clarinet by the barrel (or mouthpiece and barrel) during musical rests, with its bell on the chair, unconsciously pushing the clarinet joints back together were tuning rings not there.
I also get that such rings can prevent somewhat separated joints from rocking (as much.)
But acoustically speaking, I’m a bit lost as to their benefit. In theory, if not
practice, what are such rings suppose to do for sound quality, if anything? Does the material they’re made with play a role?
I’m not even sure I like the term “tuning” as opposed to “sharpness reduction” rings (for example). Tuning to me implies a certain bidirectional ability to match pitch, when the aforementioned rings seem to aid only in lowering pitch.(??)
BBoard content on the benefits of these rings was somewhat dated, or at least not conclusive or primarily one sided; so I though a redux might be good.
Thanks
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-04-17 20:04
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> But acoustically speaking, I’m a bit lost as to their
> benefit. In theory, if not
> practice, what are such rings suppose to do for sound quality,
> if anything? Does the material they’re made with play a
> role?
>
In theory, the gap that opens between the barrel and tenon of the upper section can cause turbulence in the airstream, resulting in unwanted resistance.
Of course, unless the ring gives you the exact tuning you need and the tuning never changes from beginning to end and moment to moment of a playing session, you're going to have to move the barrel or mouthpiece anyway sooner or later. The gap will be smaller, though, so maybe the theory has some validity.
Practically speaking, I don't notice enough of a difference to make using rings worthwhile.
Karl
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Author: Guillaume
Date: 2015-04-17 21:24
I use such a ring between the upper joint and the lower joint of my Festival, in order to find a good balance in intonation when using a long barrel, with the advantage that once tuned, you don't loose the pitch unwillingly.
I never noticed any influence on the quality of my sound, though.
Guillaume
http://www.guillaume-jouis.com
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-04-17 22:40
How do you / should you handle the logistics? Keep the ring(s) loose in the case and install each assembly? Try to leave them in the socket? Mine fell out unless I was super careful. And that was at home, can't imagine how tough that would be in the heat of battle.
At some point I glued rings in place (my favorite removable Marine Goop) but then they got nasty underneath from the moisture. Perhaps I didn't use enough goop to really seal them in, but eventually I gave up.
But I like the idea of rings. I have posted about wanting an easy way to "pick up where I left off last time" in tuning instead of pretty much starting over every session.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-17 23:13
Karl wrote:
"In theory, the gap that opens between the barrel and tenon of the upper section can cause turbulence in the airstream, resulting in unwanted resistance."
Karl...this is what I think you are saying.....whether either of us buys into its validity being a seperate question....
I think you are saying that by creating such a distance, say between the lower part of a barrel and the upper joint,
* a space opens open where air can escape, say
* because the cork on the top of the upper (left) joint isn't as pristine as it could be, and
* this air has an easier exit route out of the clarinet because the bottom of the barrel isn't smooshed up against the base of the upper joints top tenon's base, which might make a superior seal than in situations where such a gap exists.
I think you are saying that a new properly installed cork on the upper joint's top tenon might make such tuning rings less necessary.(??)
=====
Did I get what you said? I admit confusion.
Thanks.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-04-17 23:51
No. If there is a sudden widening of the air column (as there would be without a tuning ring to fill the space between the tenon and the inside shoulder of the barrel), some of the air may rush sideways into the gap as it hits the bottom edge (the top of the tenon), then as more air enters, be forced back out under the barrel shoulder, creating a circular air flow into and out of the gap. But now it's travelling at an angle, maybe as much as 90 degrees, to the original air stream, interfering with the straight-through flow of the air being blown into the clarinet by the player. I'm not sure that this cross-wind would affect the actual pitch, since that's determined by the frequency at which the air is vibrating, not its speed travelling down the tube. But I think - in theory - it could increase the feeling of resistance to the air flow the player is pushing into the mouthpiece.
If a ring is completely filling the gap (and its inside diameter matches the clarinet's entry bore), there will be a smooth, straight channel with no place for this extra side-wards movement to begin. Of course, if the barrel isn't closed down completely against the ring, you'll get the same effect, only with a smaller gap and less air being diverted and injected back across the main stream.
One possible argument against tuning rings is that, again in theory, but I think a more tenable one, you may actually get more flattening of the pitch by pulling out a millimeter without the ring than you will from putting in a one mm. ring. The added volume of air provided by the gap will add to the total volume of the air stream. Pulling the barrel and leaving a millimeter of extra space *around* the bore in addition to the millimeter of length added *to* the bore isn't a theoretical difference. So it might take a 2 mm ring to accomplish what pulling out 1 mm without a ring does.
Just to satisfy my own curiosity about the pitch effect, I just tried this comparison of pitch with and without a ring. Using my A clarinet (it was already out) and a 2 mm ring (the thickest in the set) I played C5 with and without the ring in place. To be as sure as possible that the barrel was out the same distance as the thickness of the ring, I held the ring on the outside of the tenon and closed the barrel down firmly against it, as it would have been when the ring was inside the barrel socket. Without the ring the pitch was 1 cent lower than with the ring. I assume - didn't try it for lack of time - that the difference in the throat register would be a little more pronounced.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-18 00:28
Thanks for the clarrification Karl.
As your theory goes, perhaps it's not so much tenable as "tenonable." ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-18 00:29
I use modified nylon tuning rings originally made by Yamaha ... they are now about 0.5 mm thick each. I like them because they help seal the joint, lessens the joint wobble, gives some repeat ability and eliminates accidentally pushing the joint in, after having tuned. I usually keep two or three hung on my music stand. I add them as I warm up and the surrounding air warms up (40 wind players on a warm stage!). it also seems like they make for slightly less blowing resistance (maybe imagination) and have less effect than a equivalent amount of pulling without the rings (finer adjustment).
I had some rings made for the center joint ... but lost these somewhere. Seems like a good idea to use these ... I pull 0.5 to 1 mm in the center, usually.
Tom
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2015-05-16 10:45
The gap between the barrel and the upper joint tends to flatten the throat register more than the rest of the instrument. Therefore, if you need to go down in intonation a lot, you will need a ring into the barrel and even to the middle joint.
My trick of the trade: use a shortish barrel in your A-clarinet. Then in concerts having had hardly anything to play with A, you are immediately in tune after the change. In normal circumstances play your A with a 0,5 - 1mm tuning ring. I prefer using rings to having lots of barrels, because using a ring changes the instrument less than changing a barrel. (Although i still have lots of barrels in my case and cupboards...)
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-05-16 12:27
As far as the pitch of any given note is concerned there is a relationship between the LENGTH of the tube and the VOLUME of the bore. The gap that is created when you pull out a joint increases this volume at the same time as the pulling out is increasing the length....
For short tube notes the volume of the bore MAY be increased so that notes will be flattened to a degree that is greater than is necessary given the amount pulled out. Obviously the longer the length of tube, the less influential this effect will be.
Now
Given that with short tube notes pitch will ALREADY be flattened to a greater degree than long tube notes by any given amount of pulling out due to the proportional change in the length of the tube, it is probably a good idea to do what we can to lesson the exageration of this flattening caused by an increase in the volume of the bore.
(I'm pretty much in agreeance with Jarmo above, just being more specific)
However,
It is also true that the tuning rings *may* eliminate turbulence in the bore. However please note that the tone of the clarinet is not caused by a flow of air down the clarinet, but by pressure waves pulsing down the clarinet (there is in fact a very small flow of air, but it's not actually making the sound- the pressure waves
My experience...
when pulling out more than 1 or 2 mm the tuning rings make a difference to pitch of the lower register short tube notes. I found tuning rings a bit annoying, and so went to the bother of finding a clarinet/barrel/mouthpiece combination where I didn't need to pull out too far...
As far as the stabilisation of sound is concerned- yes, I agree this is barely perceptible but I think it DOES make a difference, but others have not found this to be so and I don't care enough to argue (or try to somehow prove my point).
One other note- I have a 65mm barrel that I like very much, but is too sharp to play one warmed up. So if I am using this barrel I will put a 1mm tuning ring in the mouthpiece end, effectively lengthening the clarinet. This causes no problems unless I'm switching mouthpieces, then it's a real pain.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-05-16 17:31
donald wrote:
> However,
> It is also true that the tuning rings *may* eliminate
> turbulence in the bore. However please note that the tone of
> the clarinet is not caused by a flow of air down the clarinet,
> but by pressure waves pulsing down the clarinet (there is in
> fact a very small flow of air, but it's not actually making the
> sound- the pressure waves
True as far as the turbulence's effect on pitch is concerned. But, when I play, there's an awful lot of air going somewhere - not a very small flow of air, and it seems to me it's going through the clarinet, at least as far as the first open tone hole or two. The pitch doesn't (or shouldn't) depend on the resistance to the air flow, but my comfort level almost certainly does in blowing against it, and reed response - the ease of starting the vibration - may be considerably affected by it. So, I don't disagree with you, but I think there may be more consequence of any cross-turbulence on other things than the pitch itself.
Karl
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-16 22:33
I have heard rumors that Apple is coming out with the "accu-tune ring that varies in size and is self tuning." This should resolve the age old problem of using different tuning rings and constantly having to "tune up or tune down." We will therefore just be able to play the tune.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-05-17 20:34
Sorry, I just can't resist. One more and then I'll switch back to serious mode.
Wisco99: You can get Apple rings now. They sell them in the dried fruit section of your grocery store. They are large enough to fit any clarinet. You just have to cut them to fit your own. As you warm up, they absorb moisture and expand to keep the pitch down.
Thanks for putting up with my warped mind.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-17 21:26
Nobody else had the troubles I reported in my 4/17 comment? ...rings falling on the floor, mold growing under them? Gee, I guess it's just my general klutziness. Seriously, my rings worked great for tuning, but I could not deal with the logistics, even though I wanted to. Just me?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: William
Date: 2015-05-17 21:36
Tuning rings?? Never used them. I prefer to have a barrel than causes my clarinet Rings only prevent one from pushing in if necessary and fall out when switching barrel and mouthpiece from the Bb to the A as I do. And I've been told by master acoustician, Tom Ridenour, that the small gap left by adjusting a barrel or mouthpiece has no effect on the tone quality or response of the clarinet.
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-18 05:24
BartHx,
I heeded your advice regarding the Apple tuning rings, but when I visited my local supermarket I was faced with the choice of GMO or non-GMO apples. Of course I want a healthy choice for my clarinet, but the store refuses to label which are GMO or non GMO. What shall I do?
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