 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2015-04-09 02:49
Excuse an unprofessional question: As a boy I had violin lessons and so learned to regulate intonation with each and every tone (apart from open strings of course . Now, in my retirement, I try to play clarinet for some time already, on different mostly older instruments, and my teacher says my intonation is not bad (maybe something has remained from that early training). Now here and elsewhere I frequently see discussions on better (e.g. Yamaha) or not so good intonation of different brands. I sometimes record intonation curves of different clarinets, and I see that I can regulate intonation down to small deviations by means of minimal, partly unconscious, embouchure or breath variations. But how can I, then, judge the inherent intonation issues of an instrument?
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-09 03:45
A couple of years ago poor Tom Ridenour put out a video to demostrate how well his clarinets hold pitch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC3bMhI34vk
As I recall, a lot of people seemed to take pot shots at it, claiming it to be a lot of smoke and mirrors.
Finally, Tom himself came on the board to say that he simply played the clarinet with a standard embouchure.
The point of this is that the only way to test a clarinet for intonation is with equipment to measure it, and an embouchure that does NOT, at least for purposes of the test, accomodate notes that are off key.
Don't get me wrong, it's great that you've learned to accomodate for the idiosyncracies of different instruments. It's just that such accomdation is contraindicated for testing a clarinet's baseline intonation.
Post Edited (2015-04-09 03:46)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-09 07:05
Well I would say there are PLENTY of inherent intonation oddities in ANY clarinet. We DO have to make accommodations all the time.
If you want to start to drive yourself crazy, play the clarion notes all without the register key (Mostly easy overblown notes). With each note, wobble back and forth from a closed register to an open one. Even without a tuner, the degree to which the pitch alteration increases as you move further up and down from fourth space "E" is pretty obvious. It is clear then just how necessary it is to make these subtle and mostly unconscious pitch adjustments.
I'd say that you look for a horn that YOU play reasonably well in tune with as little conscious effort on your part as possible.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-04-09 07:22
Always fascinating when testing other horns. Many years of habits show up when you don't think about it, like all the compensations we make for pitch.
Alternate fingerings I learned over 40 years ago on my R13 often don't translate to other horns. I have to put my Buffet R13 hat on, or pull that one off and toss on the Selmer Series 10 hat... Such is life!
I won't mention the newer addition to my clarinet family that drove me totally bonkers for a couple weeks while I had to learn how NOT to compensate all that much!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-09 16:50
Consider this for a moment, even if your clarinet always played perfectly in tune no matter what kind of reed or embouchure you had, you still have to play in tune with the other clarinets, flutes, oboe, especially if you are in unison with them. Since each of the other instruments has its own inherent intonation problems, you may begin to see the problem. Just playing in tune with a flute, you probably do not realize that modern flutes are mostly built to A=442, and each manufacturer uses their own scale based on 2 types of modern scales. Older flutes use an entirely different scale and were usually built to A=440 and were wildly out of tune with themselves. Somehow you have to mesh with the musicians you are playing with, and that is where your ear and listening comes into play. Hopefully you are adjusting to them or they are adjusting to you or both....you get the idea. Many movie soundtracks use sampled instruments which are computer driven and are perfectly in tune but somehow do not sound right. One thing I learned long ago with mouthpieces is I do not want anything that is perfect. Somehow a bit of imperfection is a good thing, it keeps it human sounding. If any of you can walk on water then none of this applies.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-04-09 17:00
Playing in tune with a pianist can be an adventure, too. Depending on the age and make of the piano, how often the owner gets it tuned, the expertise of the tuner and how well the piano holds a tuning -- well, the pianist's mileage may vary. A whole lot. And don't get me started on pipe organs.
I'm impressed with anybody who can play the notoriously difficult violin, but I keep telling my violin-playing husband he's got it easy. He can move his fingers anywhere he wants on the strings. We wind players can't move the holes.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-04-09 19:10
Lelia Loban wrote:
>... We wind players can't move the holes.
>
A great inspiration for the clarinet design of the future - movable/adjustable toneholes, while one plays
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-09 23:54
Shortly after the Leblanc Concerto and Opus clarinets were released, BOTH principal and 2nd clarinetists here in the Arkansas Symphony Orchestra made the journey to check them out. Both ladies purchased new instruments and put their R13s aside.
Next rehearsal, you should have heard the intonation problems! Of course, after a few sessions, the tuning settled down and actually improved over the previous instruments. It just took a while to reset and re calibrate the way they played.
I spoke to the conductor shortly after the Leblanc debut in the ASO, and asked how he liked the new clarinet section sound. The Maestro stated that he immediately liked the warmer, darker sound that the Leblanc clarinets produced, despite tuning problems early on ...
Later, a new principal took the gig, and it was back to the R13s for everyone.
Tom
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-04-11 18:05
>Of course, after a few sessions, the tuning settled down and actually improved over the previous instruments. It just took a while to reset and re calibrate the way they played.
>
Yeah -- and for some of us, old dead habits have a way of sitting up in their coffins like Dracula. I learned to play as a child on a 1957 Conn Director with extremely wide twelfths. Also, the Conn's throat tones are all over the place, some sharp and some flat. I learned to do a whole lot of lipping up and lipping down. To this day, nearly half a century after I stopped using that Conn as my regular instrument (though I've kept it for sentimental reasons), if I don't *think* about what I'm doing I'll adjust for the Conn. That doesn't work so well on my Buffet R-13 or on any of the vintage and antique clarinets I still insist I don't collect, really I don't...!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: William
Date: 2015-04-11 20:44
For me, I don't try to play *in tune*, I simply try to play in tune with others. Like a good friend of mine often says, "It is more important to play in tune than "be" in tune". Use your ear more than your tuning meter and everyone around you may be a little happier.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-04-12 05:04
William wrote:
> For me, I don't try to play *in tune*, I simply try to play in
> tune with others. Like a good friend of mine often says, "It
> is more important to play in tune than "be" in tune". Use your
> ear more than your tuning meter and everyone around you may be
> a little happier.
Boom! Great advice!
I'm happy with a clarinet that can be within 5 cents of every note, and if I had the choice, I'd choose the notes to go from dead on, to five cents sharp and hope that not many notes are flat (even within my 5 cent tolerance). Reason being that in my bands, pitch raises, and you can only push a clarinet so far together, and it's easier to loosen or drop a jaw a little bit to lower pitch to be in tune than it use to tighten. You want a horn that is relatively in tune, and IMO, if some notes are out of tune, I'd prefer them to be slightly sharp for tuning with the rest of a band that raises in pitch as we play (and unfortunately they either DON'T adjust, or don't adjust ENOUGH)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-04-17 00:09
"But how can I, then, judge the inherent intonation issues of an instrument?"
I like the phrase "inherent intonation" because there is such a thing.
Clark Fobes suggests a method in this paper and I believe it is a good start.
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/articles/TuningtheClarinetforPS.htm
Look under the heading "PROCEDURE".
There are clarinets that are a joy to play and let you concentrate on the music. Then there are clarinets that require full focus on intonation. I recommend the former...
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