 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Halo1115
Date: 2015-04-07 08:28
Hello,
So I've been faced with a. Very technical piece (Life Dances) in which I can not keep up with the tonging for the life of me.
I was wondering if there are any exercises that I can do to improve my tonging speed and dexterity, as I can barely tongue half of the piece correctly.
If it's any help, my tongue is wide and flat.
Thank you.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-07 14:18
What's the tempo?
A good high school player should be able to tongue 16ths at, say, 126 without difficulty.
If you use anchor tonguing (putting the tip of your tongue behind your lower teeth and articulating by pushing your whole tongue forward), you will improve your speed by switching to tip-to-tip tonguing, in which only the tip of your tongue moves and makes contact near the tip of the reed.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-07 14:26
Some key points to keep in mind beyond "don't be discouraged."
o Tonguing is only the release from the reed, so you only put as much pressure on the reed as you need to damp the sound (about the same pressure you use with your tongue on the letter "T" when you say the word "ARTICULATE").
o Within the context of ensemble playing getting the notes solidly in time takes priority, so some judicious slurring may be necessary
o Some people just have faster muscles associated with their tongues. If yours tends slower, you may have to develop double/triple tonguing technique.
Reference this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRgKs5t86A
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-07 14:30
Ken,
I would say constant 16th notes at a REAL 126="the quarter note" is pretty brisk for a normal tongue. I would not label that "high school." That would be "at ANY age."
And if that is your physical limitation (and for a lot of us it is even a little lower than that!), then it does NOT mean you go into pre-med, it just means you develop other means to deal with it.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-04-07 20:07
You asked for some exercises. Here's some I do. YMMV.
Use tip-to-tip. The tongue position varies a bit from person to person. With my fairly large tongue, the position is arched almost from the back of my mouth all the way to the tip. The motion of tonguing as perceived is very slight. Actually, I feel it is a smaller motion than Paul mentioned about the "t" in "articulation", but maybe I speak mushier than he does :-) You don't have to touch the reed hard at all to stop its vibrating. To my mind, the lighter touch the better, and the smaller release the better.
Play a long tone, and get the fullest, roundest, most beautiful sound you can, with the tongue positioned for tip-to-tip articulation, so the tongue tip is as close to the reed as you can control. Then repeat the long tone, but with the lightest possible half or quarter note articulations, legatissimo, with the tongue barely touching the reed for the briefest instant, so that you can barely hear the interruptions of sound between notes. Keep the arch - as Ken said, only the tip of the tongue needs to move. That tiny motion is all that's needed; it should feel simple and easy.
Repeat the long tone with slightly longer articulations, so the separation between notes becomes distinct, but don't change the motion of the tongue, just change how long it interruptes the vibration of the reed (it doesn't interrupt the air flow, it just touches the reed tip enough to stop it from vibrating.) Repeat with progressively longer interruptions between tones, so the notes get shorter - 3/4 length, half length, staccato, staccatissimo, until you are releasing the shortest possible notes, clear, tiny blips, all with the same slight motion of the tongue. (In all other regards, you're still playing a long tone.) The releases of the tongue stay tiny, the touches stay slight.
Get accustomed to the different length articulations - they'll all get used. Do this on all notes in all registers. Vary dynamics, and always keep your best sound. The tongue doesn't need to work any harder at louder dynamics. Be aware of every note starting instantly on tiny release and stopping exactly on slight touch.
I call the above practice "long and short tones" . . . it's all about sound.
Follow the same plan with scales. Slurred, legatissimo, legato, normal, staccato, staccatissimo.
Don't let air escape the sides of your mouth, that means you're involving muscles that don't need to be involved. All your air should be going into your full, round sound.
Gradually speed things up. A metronome helps keep track of where you are on that. On single tones, see how fast a tempo you can play a block of 6 notes in, or 4, or 2, or a full scale. Push the limits, then dial it back to control. Keep the easy, minimal, accurate tongue technique: it never needs to involve force, the reed is barely touched.
Improve stamina with extended working times. Practice whole-page studies in 16ths tongued. When soreness starts, switch to something else besides tonguing, and come back later. Eventually (in weeks) soreness ceases to be an issue.
Work on the pertinent excerpts, get your fingers coordinated with your tongue. A fingering glitch that just sounds slightly mushy slurred will be glaringly obvious in staccato. Sometimes switching back and forth between slurring and tonguing clarifies things.
Sometimes I'll play the Mozart concerto 3rd movement all tongued, legato-tongued where slurs are written, staccato tongued elsewhere, varying to try and make it sound musical (ah, this version is not yet ready to present in performance.)
Tonguing seems to need daily practice. Once stamina increases enough, it's easy to spend an hour on it, but that amount is not necessary for daily maintenance.
Listen to recordings or videos of clarinetists tonguing, like Ricardo Morales, Charles Neidich, Robert Spring, etc. That helps fix your target in your inner ear, and your body will subtly adjust in the right direction.
Finally, and this is a bit controversial, when I switched from single-lip embouchure to double-lip, my tonguing improved (unexpectedly), so I suggest that.
I'm blaming caffeine for this opus. Sorry, it's surely too much detail. I sort of got reviewing the topic to myself.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-04-07 21:17
I've always had trouble with fast articulation too. A few things that have helped me improve over time:
1. Make sure you're not changing anything about your embouchure/airstream when you're fast-tonguing; don't tense up or try to increase your embouchure/air pressure or anything. Make sure you're not using a little puff of air on every note. It should be a continuous airstream, simply interrupted by the tongue.
2. Keep the articulation light - on very fast tonguing, don't really worry about playing staccato. The lighter and more legato you feel like you're tonguing, the faster you'll be able to go.
3. Rather than thinking about tonguing the reed for every note, think about keeping your tongue on the reed and releasing it for every note.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-08 02:09
A couple of things.
"A good high school player should be able to tongue 16ths at, say, 126 without difficulty."
* No way. That's far too hard to do--maybe for really advanced players including those that have mastering using more than the ta or da syllable to tongue, like double tonguer's ta-ka.
* Let's not forget the importance of reed balance in helping to tongue fast.
* There are many good youtube videos on this that can describe this with video better than just words.
* The simpliest exercise to do is take 16 notes and first play them legato. Then tongue one of the group, then two of the group even if at a slower tempo
Work up that speed, then try tonguing 3 of the group, etc.
* Also, work on your assignment with a slower metronome. Doing say may reveal where your fingers and tongue may not be in alignment.
You can do it with scales if you like.
* I also think this easier to do with smaller tip opening mouthpieces, but practice makes all players get better on the equipment they have.
* Learn double tonguing.
* Take in more mouthpiece! Not to the point of squeaking, but just, just before.
* Relax the throat.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-04-08 13:11
Sixteenths at 126 for a good high school player is definitely in the ballpark. Some a little slower, many a bit faster. You can't play the Mozart Concerto or Weber Concertino without being able to tongue sixteenth notes well at an Allegro tempo. A good high school player is most often one who has worked at articulation in a sensible way for long enough to develop their speed and consistency.
The typical middle school student who takes private lessons and has been playing playing 2-3 years should be able to tongue sixteenth's in the 90's without too much trouble.
Speeding up the tongue is like speeding up the fingers. It's done incrementally over time with a metronome, putting the emphasis on correct form and sound first, and speed second.
Be sure you can play the passage perfectly evenly slurred first, and also that you can tongue on a single note evenly and cleanly at the required tempo before trying to combine the two.
Practicing tonguing on the just the mouthpiece and barrel can sometimes allow you to break through to a slightly faster tempo when you're stuck, and also to hear any flaws in tongue placement. You should be listening for any dips in the pitch or inconsistencies in the way the notes start. As others have said, minimal motion is important. If your tongue is moving too much you'll see the motion in the face or neck.
A simple but effective exercise, assuming that you are tonguing correctly, but just not as fast as you would like is to play a major scale ascending in 4/4 like so:
C-D-E-rest, D-E-F-rest, E-F-G-rest, etc up at least two octaves, where the second note of each group is divided into sixteenths, and the first and last notes are quarter notes. Find a tempo that you can do this at flawlessly without effort, and then move the metronome up by 1's (ie 90, 91, 92). If you are flawless move it up again, if not move it down. Over the course of a few weeks you should see significant improvement. Most people never do this kind of work, which is probably why most people eventually find they can't tongue as quickly as they need to.
Be sure not to practice past the point of fatigue, especially in the beginning as this can be highly counterproductive. It's not about spending lots of time on it, it's about doing it everyday with focus and attention. You can also subdivide the second note into eighths or triplets for variety and to help get unstuck when unable to advance to a new tempo.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-08 15:48
My point is that it is unnecessarily shaming to put some sort of development or grade expectation on tonguing. As I stated there are professionals that cannot do constant (through full measure or more) of sixteenths at 126 per minute (cleanly, accurately, rock-steady rhythm).
What then would you say is a decent tempo is for second year college, 132, 140? It gets a little ridiculous (and possibly even a bit self serving) when we speak in those terms.
Those blessed with fast-twitch muscles in the tongues have no problem developing speed with practice and good technique. Julian Bliss said he single tongues everything because he doesn't like the end result of the sound he gets with a double tongue (I think most of us would share in the assessment if we had the choice).
So the next time (probably in just a few hours) I hear professional wind players (to include brass players mind you!) who have difficulty playing sixteenth notes at 126 beats per minute, I'll just give 'em your e-mails for pointers.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-08 16:04
Jonathan,
Some very good suggestions have been offered here, but please keep in mind we are all built differently, so what may be easy for one person is a challenge for another. I am 6'6", and my body is quite different to live in than most others in the world. I have a large tongue to go with my large body, so I have sought advice from others in dealing with that because for me tonging quickly on clarinet, saxophone, or flute has always been a challenge. On clarinet I found that arching my tongue more in order to move it back was what I needed, but I still lack the speed many other players have. A light touch against the reed also helped, but probably everyone who has posted above can tongue quicker than I can. It is just the way I am built. As Clint Eastwood said, "a man has to know his limitations." In the meantime keep working with the suggestions offered and it may resolve itself.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-04-08 17:04
nellsonic wrote:
> C-D-E-rest, D-E-F-rest, E-F-G-rest, etc up at least two
> octaves, where the second note of each group is divided into
> sixteenths, and the first and last notes are quarter notes.
> Find a tempo that you can do this at flawlessly without effort,
> and then move the metronome up by 1's (ie 90, 91, 92). If you
> are flawless move it up again, if not move it down. Over the
> course of a few weeks you should see significant improvement.
> Most people never do this kind of work, which is probably why
> most people eventually find they can't tongue as quickly as
> they need to.
>
If I understand this, you're talking about tonguing four quick notes (quarter - 4 sixteenths - quarter - rest). For many of us with "sluggish tongues," the problem isn't here. It's found in much longer articulated passages.
This kind of short-burst articulation doesn't by itself solve the problems presented by those long articulated cadenza-like passages in the Nielsen concerto or, really, even the much shorter arpeggio in the scherzo in the Beethoven 6th, which many major players past and present have broken up with judiciously placed slurred pairs. I once heard Ricardo Morales articulate every note in the final sixteenth-note paroxysm near the end of the Weber Concertino (technically impressive if gratuitous).
How do you recommend expanding your 3-beat+rest practice pattern to improve passages that can cover several staves. Does the fundamental difficulty - the root cause of the problem - change as the passage gets longer?
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-08 17:23
You may be making a puff of air from your abdomen when you start each note. To check, rest the bell on your knee and play low C4 ![[C4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c4.gif) . Rest your right hand on your abdomen below your ribs and play staccato notes at medium-slow speed (say one note per beat at 100 bpm).
If you feel any abdominal pulse, that's slowing you down. The large muscles respond and move much slower than the small ones in your tongue.
Also, look in a mirror and watch your throat and jaw to see if there's any movement. These are inherently slow-moving parts, and any movement will limit your speed.
Way, way back in 1960, I learned the following method from the clinician Bob Lowrey, which has worked well for me ever since.
Begin with a convenient note, say the chalumeau C4.
Make the motion LA LA LA, etc. with just the tip of your tongue, deliberately MISSING the reed. Gradually move the tip of your tongue toward the tip of the reed until it barely brushes.
When you can maintain the "barely brushing" position. Also practice moving your tongue tip away and then back, to make the process familiar. What should happen is that the sound is just barely interrupted, and the breath doesn’t change at all. It should take only a couple of minutes to learn this.
Then use it on short scales, up a third and down. Always keep the breath and sound going and play C-D-E-D-C. Speed is irrelevant. What's important is keeping the tongue contact light.
Next, extend it up to G, C-D-E-F-G-F-E-D-C. Then do it for an octave, up to clarion C5.
Remember, it's breath steady, and the only thing that moves is the tip of your tongue
Ken Shaw
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-04-09 10:39
Paul wrote: "My point is that it is unnecessarily shaming to put some sort of development or grade expectation on tonguing."
It is only shaming if one approaches it that way, either as a student or a teacher. How is tonguing so different than any other area of technique? Is is shaming if the honor band audition scales are required to be tongued at a particular tempo, as opposed to slurred? This just doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps I'm not hearing you correctly.
I think that the real shame is in just leaving tonguing speed to chance and removing any expectations for incremental proficiency. My point was that many teachers do just that. Anyone can improve their tonguing with regular appropriate work. Sure, everyone has a limit to what they can achieve, but that's true with finger velocity or any other aspect of technique you might wish to pick. And yes, everyone's situation is different. If you didn't start playing till 8th grade, or never had good instruction until high school that's most likely going to make a big difference for some time. The only shame is in not working hard to be your best, and that's only if you actually aspire to excellence. Also, nothing wrong with double-tonguing, but the odds of success there are very low if the single tonguing mechanics haven't been thoroughly explored first.
--------------------------------------------
Karl wrote: "How do you recommend expanding your 3-beat+rest practice pattern to improve passages that can cover several staves. Does the fundamental difficulty - the root cause of the problem - change as the passage gets longer?"
Generally I've found that if there are flaws in the actual tonguing mechanics they are very evident even in a four note burst. Once the mechanics are sound and the speed has increased by a significant amount, using the same note pattern, but with two beats of 16th's on the second pitch each time is the next step (so the 4/4 measure becomes a 5/4 measure). Usually there is a loss of top speed, but again you can work on that in the same way as I described previously. After some weeks or months at that it's on to fast tongued scales and articulation etudes. Being able to play these cleanly and accurately all slurred and also on one note as previously described remains important. I hope that helps. I don't have students who play Nielsen. The standard clarinet works of Debussy, Poulenc, Stravinsky, Weber, Mozart, etc. is about all I usually have to deal with, and not everyone gets that far.
I don't consider myself a particular expert in this area, I just know what has worked well for myself and most of my students over the years, and I'm sure there are other approaches that would work just as well or even better. I'm always ready to learn a better way. I do know that relaxation, dedication, and sound mechanics go a long way for most.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-09 15:10
So you say that if you CAN NOT play at a certain tempo then your musical development has ceased at a (name your level) and it is your fault for not doing the technique correctly or not working hard enough.
How am supposed to read this then ???????
And everyone who says this CAN, but there are many who can't who ARE professional musicians and I do NOT want those students who have a burning desire (and musical talent mind you) to be discouraged by this blatantly TOXIC and (dare I say) "show offy" discourse.
Double tonguing is a perfectly reasonable technique that many players have to incorporate to do the job.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-04-10 04:37
Paul, I respect you, and I'm sorry that this is such a sensitive topic for you. I'd suggest that your reaction to my posts here has more to do with that sensitivity than with the totality of what I've actually written (as opposed to your cherry-picking and negative characterization). I'll bow out of this thread at this point as our interaction has clearly detracted from it. If you have anything further to say to me on this you can contact me offline. Be well.
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