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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-02 22:36
Time for another question.
I have started getting to a point where my sound is nice (to my beginner ears) and technique is easier.
I don't arrive at this point every time I play and it is a bit frustrating.
I think I have found what it takes for me to reach this point in a playing session: "high air pressure".
What it feels like is that i feel my stomach being a bit tired or at least I feel the muscles getting a work out. I can really press out the air using alot of force without getting tired.
When I am in this mode I get a very centered and sweet tone, most undertoning dissapears, high tones come out easier, fingering is easier, low tones sound better etc.
I also noticed that when i just try to hold my lips together and blow to feel that my stomach is active, I buzz my lips very easily. Alot of tones, almost hard not to buzz.
The problem is that most often I dont reach this sweet spot in my practice sessions (1-2 hours).
Often I reach it at the end, when my thumb and lips are begging to stop.
A few times I felt this most of my session, I dont know what was different then. Perhaps I was less tired.
So I have tried doing alot of blowing prior ro warming up on the clarinet so that I might reach this sweet spot earlier, but it dont seem to work.
I've tried using my plastic-table-tennis-ball-device for long periods, even covering most holes in it so i really have to press hard with my stomach.
Does anyone have any tips regarding warming up the blowing muscles in a short amount of time?
Could there be something else I should consider trying?
Regards
Peter
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-02 22:58
It should be a matter of 'setting' your gut (or abdominal muscles) from the start rather than having to warm up to it. BRAVO though, you are ahead of the game by at least realizing what you need to do.
If you've ever had one of this moments with a little brother where you say, "go ahead, punch me in the stomach," THAT is the sort of 'firming up' you do to your middle to start off correctly. Remember, as you breath out, your stomach REMAINS out !!!! That idea should help out a lot too.
I tell students that the only two areas that really work constantly (and I mean WORK) are the abdominal muscles and the embouchure. Even at your softest dynamics you must generate a good amount of air pressure within your oral cavity (if ONLY there where a pressure gauge for this!).
And you should notice (when you get all the other positive effects) that your clarinet is actually actively vibrating under your fingers quite noticeably, unlike what it feels like when the air pressure is NOT there.
You're almost there !!!!
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-02 23:18
Thanks for the help.
I do the same thing from the start I believe.
Before starting, I usually try to blow as hard as I can with my hand in the way of my lips, and feel as my gut gets to work.
It just feels like I cant reach enough strength before Ive warmed up enough. Or maybe it is that I feel a bit tired or lazy in the beginning after a day at the computer at work. And perhaps I dont use the muscles enough because of my general condition is "slouchy". And perhaps I get more energized by playing for an hour, which allows me to fully utilize the gut?
Or maybe I should work on core exercises?
Edit: i have learned alot the past months, and my sound is much better before the sweet spot than it was previously. But I get such a rush playing in my sweet spot, I can not stop playing after reaching it. It would be fantastic to have this feeling all the time
:-)
Also, I really like your talk about vibration. I feel that some always, but much more on some notes and when in the sweet spot
Lastly, it COULD also be related to daily condition. Perhaps related to my asthma. Bur I refuse to be subject to daily conditions.
Regards
Peter
Post Edited (2015-04-02 23:29)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-03 01:32
"The problem is that most often I dont reach this sweet spot in my practice sessions (1-2 hours)."
I take no issue with the way you play, and incorporation of the stomach muscles, just that you feel that it takes you hours to warm up.
Unless you can report to me that your asthma gets easier to manage with time spend playing clarinet in any one session, I'm forced to ask myself what gets easier when a single session's time played passes. And the only answer I have, cane or synthetic, is the reed.
Peter. Clearly, it is necessary for us to play up against resistance. One need only take the reed off the mouthpiece and blow to see that without such resistance we make no sound, and can only blow for the length on an exhale.
But that does not mean that we should be fighting with this resistance either. Who's mouthpiece, reed, and reed strength finds its way to your setup?
Assuming you are not playing the lowest strength reeds, would would happen if you went down 1/2 step?
Can you make decent sound by trading embouchure strength for force of the air column? If so, you may be playing on too strong a reed for your mouthpiece.
The clarinet is a technically hard enough instrument to play that we don't need to add to it physical strength as a necessary attribute for decent play. This isn't to say that good aerobic shape can do anything but help. It is to say, that we should be playing on the lightest strength reeds that don't affect our artistry.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-03 03:58
Dear "WhitePlainsDave,"
You raise an interesting idea with taking the reed off the mouthpiece. I can replicate the exact feel and air speed that I need with no clarinet in my mouth whatsoever, just blowing through my pursed lips, OR even open mouthed (but that sounds like a slow scary exhale!). So it CANNOT be related to reed strength at all. It really boils down to having an idea what volume of air needs to be moving at any given time (for the giving dynamic and register of course).
If I may add to this self analysis (now that this can of worms is open), a key component is to keep the air MOVING AT A STEADY RATE. The ONLY way to do this is to have opposition of your abdominals (pushing air OUT) with your diaphragm (ostensibly fighting to draw in more air) - with your abdominals winning that tug-of-war of course. This enables the 'abdominal' push to be a rock steady rate. Maybe what I have been feeling as pressure, has more to do with STEADY.
Harder or softer reeds has more to do with what forces you apply against the reed with your embouchure (muscles surrounding the mouthpiece) and the response you get, NOT the idea of moving air.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-03 06:03
It is my experience that stiffer reeds require not only a stronger embouchure, but more exertion of air.
I don't know why that just because you have the ability to mimic the air flow through the instrument with reed attached, with in fact no reed attached, that you draw no correlation between reed strength and air blow pressure.
To each their own I guess.
Post Edited (2015-04-03 06:04)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-03 06:17
Well I am admitting that perhaps I was wrong in saying pressure. It has more to do with that "meaty" feeling at my midsection when I play. This is clearly an effect of the isometric pull of the opposing muscles involved (again, abdominal muscles vs the diaphragm).
Tony Pay made a very interesting point in his treatise entitled something like "the magical diminuendo." I am more fully appreciating what he was getting at and what all is involved. Though the diaphragm is not technically pushing air OUT, it is very important to modulating air speed.
I guess it would be a bit more accurate to say that the amount of WORK I feel in the gut remains constant, whether it be blasting at full volume (pretty much just abdominal muscles) or navigating an exceptionally delicate pianissimo passage (engaging the diaphragm so that something just over 50% of the abdominal press is allowed to actually move the air out).
Or something like that.
It would be helpful to hear from a few others out there on this one.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-03 12:04
Thanks for your further elaborations.
I play m15 with V21 3.5. I can get a OK sound with 3 and as you say, it is less work. But I do not get the really creamy centered caramel exquisit wonderful core that I archive with the 3.5s.
And it is not that one reed gets soft during the session.
I can rotate to new reeds and all reeds play perfectly in this state.
If I play on my 3 V21 reeds I have a slightly less airy sound from the stars, but i dont get that feeling of high pressure in my oral cavity that creates the Great sound.
It Could also be that when my chops get tired I change something.
Oral cavity, tongue or throat, which allows this Great air to happen.
But I really feel a difference in how I am able to push with my gut for a long period of time without letting go due to feeling "tired" or "lazy" if you will.
Edit: it is now morning here in Sweden (well for me at least, easter day off) and I just woke up.
If I try to buzz my lips, I give up after one second. And I can not get up to the pitch I could yesterday after playing clarinet and reaching that sweet spot.
I can however use my gut to blow a thin stream of air that I feel is being pushed in the same manner, but much weaker.
Its a feeling like "the batteries are out of juice".
Perhaps I should try warming up in a more general sense such as running or other physical exercise.
And perhaps I am not ready for the 3.5 reeds. I changed from 3 for the same reason, after warming up they started feeling shrill and I couldnt use full air without loosing the Great sound.
And when I tried the 3.5 at this state they were much better.
And they are easy to play too, I can play on 4 if I had to.
I will also try something my teacher did with me way back.
Letting me play a while with way too stiff reed, and then going back. I used to have a hard time using enough air because I practiced at home alot with fear of neighbour war.
Regards
Peter
Post Edited (2015-04-03 12:15)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-03 13:53
Ok, I'd like a day or two to really explore some options and get back to you.
I think I may be learning here as well.
Things for me to consider:
o If I were to go to a slightly weaker reed right in the middle of rehearsal, I would be able to get pretty much the same sound but I wouldn't be happy about it (it would not "feel" right).
o I have a student playing on an M15 who I believe uses strength 3 regular box Vandorens who sounds amazing (I'd like to ask that person a few questions).
One thing I'd like YOU to try:
There is a nice long tone exercise that can be taxing, but helps build you up and just 'getting it going' could be telling.
You start with Low "E" as soft as possible, but you don't tongue the note, you actually 'sneak in' by starting just blowing with a loose embouchure, snugging up until the note comes in out of the air (out of "no where," soft as possible). You then count S-L-O-W-L-Y around 54 beats per minute up from 1 to 8 AS you crescendo up to the loudest you can possibly play (basically each number is a louder dynamic; you end up with eight distinct dynamic levels from the softest you can play to the loudest being the number 8), then count back down (7, 6, 5, 4 .....etc.) as you diminuendo to "one" which will be a fade to nothing (niente). All this is done in one breath over 15 counts (so make sure you start with a big breath). The full exercise is to do that twice on low "E," twice on "F," twice on "F#" and finally twice on "G."
Now what do you do with this, you may ask? You want to make sure the quality of your sound (the timber with all its center and associated vibrations) is consistent throughout ALL dynamics. You do this by maintaining that balance (or ratio) between your air vs. your embouchure control. You always must keep in mind that the two bad extremes to avoid are "too much embouchure" (or biting) where you pinch off the air and get a 'wheezy,' small, anemic sound; vs. too little embouchure control where you get a flabby, uncentered (or an "old-time jazz" sound). Use your ears to keep the sound in between those extremes; keep it centered !!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-03 14:45
Thanks a lot Paul for your big enthusiasm and helpfulness!
I had some thoughts of doing something similar to what you describe, but didn't get to it yet (watched Ridenours air videos recently)
I will do your exercise the next time I get to my horn!
Edit:
I did the exercise you suggested, and I played får about two hours with a dinner break.
I did not reach the sweet spot and I noticed sonething that I have noticed before. As I play I get more and more tired. Like yawning tired.
This is starting to feel like sonething asthma related to me.
Not sure why it seems to Improve sometimes if I play through it, maybe the asthma works that way. I remember reading people with asthma being suggested to play clarinet in the past?
I will gladly try anything you throw at me, and I will try next time to take some asthma medicine before playing.
Regards
Peter
Post Edited (2015-04-03 21:09)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-06 05:27
Ok, I put myself in a learning situation with a really weak reed (some old thing rolling around in a drawer). I could tell that if it were a decent reed (which is was not) that I would be able to acquire the same sounds as with a stronger reed. It was a matter of just finding that balance between the control of the embouchure and the amount of air used (specific to a certain note of a certain register at a certain dynamic).
I loved the video "The Signature Sound of Daniel Bonade." In it there was a comment that it is better to find that beautiful sound at a point just before the reed goes out of control (loose sounding, old-time-jazzy). I have an issue with that though since that would also mean your tuning could not adjust DOWN if you needed a quick adjustment "in the moment." However I see the advantages to that (no biting, all relaxed).
Now to get back to air. Here is where I had to re-think everything I thought I had down pat. What is actually important is the constant use of the opposition set up between the abdominal muscles (actively pushing air out) and the diaphragm (wanting to inhale MORE air). I FEEL the active pushing ALL THE TIME. I would equate that with air pressure.......but that is NOT the case. What happens is the isometric tug-of-war IS necessary to allow smooth, constant air (when you need steady dynamic) and smooth transitions to GREATER air volume and to LESSER air volumes.
So I do feel this PUSH from my gut. I believe the diaphragm being so big and well practiced (it is also, of course an involuntary muscle) with all the breathing we do through life, has no problem counter balancing whatever we do with the abdominal muscles so we don't really FEEL it working even when it is doing almost 50% of the work when we play pianissimo.
That's my confession. I have learned that it is really muscle pressure not air pressure that I feel. Although the goal is to have complete control over the FLOW of air and that can only happen with the above muscular scenario.
And in the final analysis the reed strength ONLY equates to how much you desire to push with your embouchure. Air is not even a factor in reed strength.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-06 22:55
I also feel that my gut is "tensed up and pushing" at all times when playing.
You said something very interesting about reed strength that is new to me.
I regularly use two reed strengths (3 and 3.5) for different scenarios.
What I have always thought:
With the softer reed, I can use less embouchure pressure / air pressure to get play very soft dynamic, but I cannot play loud enough which I need when playing in orchestra.
With the thicker reed, I can go louder (using more air/less embouchure pressure) but the very softest dynamic tend to be more breathy/take more effort.
But you say that reed strength has nothing with air to do?
Regards
Peter
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-07 05:07
Well I DO agree (as a number 4 Vandoren user for about 35 years) that a stronger reed allows more decibels than one that is less strong (all else being equal)......to a degree. I have always "pushed" more with my embouchure (probably more than I should) and I think I am stuck with it. Brad Behn made an assessment in just a few minutes of listening to me and said that I am bringing the reed closer to the facing with my embouchure. Further adding that I could very well just start off with a closer facing.
The softest dynamics to which you refer require again to engage your embouchure more critically in that you are dealing with a smaller volume of air and must balance this with care. THIS is exactly what the long tone exercise I outlined is good for developing.
If no reasonable amount of embouchure control can produce a clear tone at ALL dynamics, the reed is too strong for the facing (or just too strong).
Air volume and embouchure control CONSTANTLY modulates as you move note to note, register to register, dynamic to dynamic. The only way to control it is with the constant muscular opposition outlined above (which is particularly noticeable when playing pianissimo because it seems an awful lot of effort for such a small amount of sound !!!).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-08 22:40
Update:
I believe I found out what has really been going on.
And you are right, it does not seem that I need to spend hours warming up my muscles.
I believe it has been voicing, and specifically the back of the mouth/throat.
When I tried yawning and doing an extreme ooh embochure, I had a very good experience throughout.
I will keep experimenting with this and with my new CL4 to see what I can find :-)
Thanks alot for your help!
Regards
Peter
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-04-14 22:59
Update again:
I was wrong in my above post.
It WAS actually the air, but not alone.
I have been using double lip for most of the time I've been playing clarinet (less than a year) and have had no real issues with pain etc.
I play rather soft reeds (3-3½ V21 on a M15) and can play for a couple of hours without too much pain.
I thought I was not biting. It turns out I did.
The fix for my problem? The "really soft reed exercise" (not sure where I found it).
I performed the exercise this way:
1. Put on the softest reed you have (I ATG:ed down a #3 a lot).
2. Play long tones, try to get a beautiful tone even though it is almost impossible due to the extremely soft reed. I played long tones, tried playing at all dynamics etc.
3. Put on your normal reed again.
4. At this stage, I noticed directly that when I used a similar embochure as I did with the soft reed, I did not get a clear sound. It was important for me to focus on not closing the jaw or the throat, but to try only pushing with the gut to get the good sound.
5. After a while, I reach the sensation of a very open connection between my gut and reed, a very different feeling from my previous technique.
From here on I can only play for about an hour, cause my gut gets very worked out. But boy its' a blast! The resonance, the ease of all registers etc. is vastly improved.
This trick has been the single most helpful to my clarinet playing ever. Everything works so much better after I get the right feeling.
So in the end, it was almost what I suspected - I did not use enough air. I just did not know how to "warm up" to find that sweet spot. I now know that was because I was biting and closing up my throat to get a clear sound, and I did not know how to allow more pressure from my gut.
If someone hasn't tried the trick with a soft reed, I really recommend it! It sounds awful and doesn't feel like much to me when playing the soft reed, but after switching back and maintaining the same feeling, I believe it can really help!
Regards
Peter
Post Edited (2015-04-14 23:00)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-15 05:11
Yes it is the "pushing with the gut" feeling that is most important to producing wonderful resonance.
I have been wrong up to this point in equating this with "air pressure." But the actual mechanics here are complicated. Perhaps the "imagery" of air pressure is the best way to communicate the idea.
First let me say that it will only take a few weeks to build up your abdominal muscles properly so that this is not exhausting.
The reality is that you MUST have the abdominal muscles engaged almost completely at ALL times so that they can respond quickly enough for the rapid and smooth transitions of air fluctuations that happen note-to-note and dynamic-to-dynamic. We FEEL the abdominals because they are VOLUNTARY muscles that all to often do NOT get enough of a workout. The other half of the equation is the diaphragm being used in opposition to the abdominals. Of course the diaphragm is WELL worked out with all the breathing it does as part of the autonomic nervous system. So we are not really that aware (at least I was not) of how much it is being used to regulate air CORRECTLY.
Starting off your practice sessions with the full long tone exercise as I described earlier (and ensuring that you are finding the core to your sound AT ALL TIMES) will be the best way to keep you going in the right direction. But in all honesty, now that you have "that sound" in your ear and the associated physicality, there is NO GOING BACK !!!!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-05-17 21:33
I have to revisit this subject again, due to recent events.
I was playing with an Orchestra and our section was told to really blow our brains out. And so I did.
This caused my normally fine reeds to sound like a kazzoo and I had to resort to some strength #4 i had been trying out. (normally use 3.5)
It worked great, and I was tired all day after such a work out.
Trying the same reeds today, I couldnt get the fuzzyness out and I suspect this is because I am not using enough force in my air.
Perhaps this is psycological because I am plating alone in my apartment and though I feel like Im giving it my hardest effort perhaps a part of me is holding back, as opposed to in a Orchestral situation where I can barely hear myself if I dont go crazy?
Any thought?
Regards
Peter
Post Edited (2015-05-17 21:34)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-18 00:39
Lot of different things at play here. Firstly, addressing playing by yourself: you would NOT hear any 'grunge' in your sound in the context of a full ensemble.
Secondly about sound: Perhaps you were able to 'give 'em what they wanted' by "blowing your brains out" but that is NOT the preferred way to go about it. My greatest lesson on this was recently as a colleague was trying out mouthpieces. One particularly expensive one came off to him in the practice room as "bees buzzing in his head." By that he meant that it sounded mostly of overtones without enough 'fundamental.' When he played it in orchestra a lot of comments came back (all complimentary) mostly about how good he sounded but some such as "Wow, you sounded so much louder."
What you NEED to sound like to the orchestra and the audience may not be what sounds best to you at close quarters.
Finally, none of that really has much to do with strength of reed. As you have found, a stiffer reed is really just going to wear you down faster. You must find that balance of embouchure control and air speed for each note, each register and each dynamic. For that you use your ears to find the center of the note.
Use the reed/mouthpiece combination that is comfortable for you and find a way to produce the desired result from there.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: faltpihl ★2017
Date: 2015-05-19 20:45
I have yet again made a breakthrough in this topic that I would love to share with you all.
I have found a very comfortable setup now. Easy to play, and easy to go to all dynamics without loosing quality, easy to sustain notes with better stability and control than I could before:
STIFFER reeds!
I now finally agree with the recommendations vandoren have in their PDF.
I am now most comfortable using #4.5 R56/V21 (might try #5 in the future as well) due to: Loose embouchure + stiff reed combo! (With my M15 mouthpiece. They recommend #4-#5 R56 reeds as an example)
With the strong reeds, I can relax my lips around the mouthpiece without affecting the sound by "subtle movements in the embouchure". I have just as easy time blowing and focusing the sound on the #4.5 as on a #3 reed, but I can have a more open mouth feeling, more relaxed and extremely little embouchure pressure.
I am getting the feeling of an open passage between the reed and my air support.
Times like these make me so happy that I found the clarinet. It is a pure joy to play, and it gets better every time I find a new trick to improve my playing
Thanks everyone for your effort in helping me, especially Paul who is always fast to jump on most threads
Regards
Peter
Post Edited (2015-05-19 20:48)
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-20 00:15
As you warm up, have a large, muscle bound guy who pumps iron stand behind you and perform the Heimlich maneuver as you go for the high notes.
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