 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: willow129q
Date: 2015-03-24 16:20
God I am frustrated!!
OK so I used to have a Vandoren CL4, and it was really really sharp. I just learned recently on here that Vandoren made an "American" version of this mouthpiece - Series 13 Cl4s, that are standard American tuning. Excellent! I special ordered one on woodwindbrasswind.
I've been playing it - I do think it feels a little different, it's a bigger sound and maybe a tiny bit more open. Overall though it's good enough, I'm tired of the mouthpiece hunt. My intonation is MUCH better. (except I'm flat on my E, concert D, is that normal? I can't remember anymore! I've been sharp so much, anyways)
The thing is, I've been squeaking SO BADLY now. It's really frustrating. I've tried all the different reeds in my box, thought it was weird that they all suddenly turned bad at the same time, tried a new box, still squeaking. It's that kind of squeaking that I think of as "chipping", right at the beginning of the note. I've had two gigs and squeak squeak squeak, it's utterly embarrassing and I can't figure out what to do to fix it.
Is it my tonguing? Is it the new mouthpiece and I need to get used to it? Am I using the wrong reeds (Vandoren blue box 3.5), is the mouthpiece a dud?
HAAALLLPP
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-24 16:39
Ya know, sometimes it remains a bit of a mystery. I have an M13 that I was sure had one tiny dimension off somewhere, but overall it sounded great so I held on to it for YEARS. I finally took it to a guy who said it measured fine. He still did a bit of adjusting to the tip (which unfortunately opened it up a bit) and I brought it home to find that there still was an inclination there for the mouthpiece to "chirp" every now and then. A mystery.
Yours may be an easier diagnosis, but there is a chance that there is something about the combination of your embouchure, the angle you hold the clarinet (side to side that is) and the facing of that particular mouthpiece that just doesn't work for you. At least that is my conclusion for myself on the above mystery.
I too was interested in trying the 13 Version of the CL4, but your description is discouraging. What I like most about my CL4 is the compact "oooh" sound that it gets. Any change in the tone chamber DOES have an affect on the sound, and it's unfortunate to hear about this result.
Are you speaking of the first (lowest) line "E" of the staff? The typical problem with a 13 Series (or any other lower pitch custom mouthpiece) on a Buffet R13 is that it will make the "E" and particularly the "F" at the bottom of the staff hard to adjust upward enough. This is REALLY a problem in the Winter when halls are cool and NOTHING short of a really short barrel will fix this nightmare. I am inclined to usually avoid the lower pitched mouthpieces for this reason, however, the problem in the Summer can be quite different.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-03-24 17:12
How many of the CL4-13s did you try? It's possible that something has happened to one of the rails on the mouthpiece to cause the squeaks. Apart from manufacturing glitches or shipping damage, it's possible that a mouthpiece out "on approval" from an online outlet like WW&BW comes back damaged or, in one instance I experienced, deliberately altered slightly (perhaps by someone trying to tweak the facing and then not liking the result). So, you might contact WW&BW and try to work out an exchange to see if the squeaking is unique to the one you have or, for you, intrinsic to the design.
Flat throat notes - G through Bb - can always be adjusted once you've decided on a mouthpiece and barrel combination. E and F can also be raised, but with the complication that you'll also raise the twelfths, B5 and C6. When I played on Series 13s years ago they did tend to be flat in the throat register, which was one of the reasons I moved on.
Karl
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Author: willow129q
Date: 2015-03-24 17:35
Thanks for your replies.
Paul: Yeah I loooved the sound of the original CL4 I had. But the sharpness, I'm not sure how anyone deals with it here. My band definitely tunes to A440, not A444!! :P haha longer barrel didn't do too much to help, just took the edge off a little. My boyfriend (violinist) is soo happy that my intonation is better now, that made it really worth it.
Interesting about the E/F being flat. That's exactly what I'm experiencing. Just cannot lip it up enough at all. Well, good to know it's not me but it's hard to be out of tune with an open string! BF was tuning the 5th as wide as he could bear at our gig last night.
KDK: what is a rail? not sure of the anatomy names on a mouthpiece. So there is a very small little like...chip out of the outer edge of the facing on the right side, which I was sort of like...did I do that or did it come that way?? I'm a little nervous about trading it because I don't know and maybe they wouldn't take it back. It's about a third of the way down. But maybe I can just call them and see...
Don't know what direction to go in as far as mouthpieces are concerned, if this kind doesn't work for me. It's really hard to mouthpiece shop, it's not like there are stores around here with a ton of different kinds to try. And it's complicated by the fact that I'm not looking for a classical mouthpiece (I play folk music)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-03-24 22:51
willow129q wrote:
> KDK: what is a rail? not sure of the anatomy names on a
> mouthpiece. So there is a very small little like...chip out of
> the outer edge of the facing on the right side, which I was
> sort of like...did I do that or did it come that way??
You've seen Jack's mouthpiece diagram, which locates the rails for you. That chip could could easily be causing the chirps and squeaks. I'm not sure what to tell you about trying to exchange it - it could have come to you that way and you could truthfully say you didn't notice it or didn't understand that it could be a problem. It depends a little on how long you've had it.
If the chip is the problem, you won't get around it by changing your embouchure or your reeds. If you can't exchange it, you may just have to take a hard swallow and order another one.
I would always suggest ordering at least two (more if you don't mind the temporary load on your credit card and can look at the restocking fee as an investment in finding a good specimen) and send what you don't want back. Between manufacturing variation and the possibility of damage at any of several points between the factory and you, mouthpieces of the same brand and model can't be assumed to be identical.
Karl
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Author: jonrussell20
Date: 2015-03-25 14:52
The chirp seems strange, but you definitely do often need to change your reed strength when you get a new mouthpiece. I've gotten two new mouthpieces in the past few years, and both times I had to change the strength of the reeds I used. Do your reeds in other ways seem any harder or softer than they used to? If so, I would recommend trying a half-size lighter or heavier and see if that makes a difference.
Jonathan Russell
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Author: willow129q
Date: 2015-03-27 05:20
KDK - thanks for the advice of ordering two mouthpieces at once. You know, I know that's true, and yet I didn't do it. WHHYYY. Next time, I'm really going to do that.
Anyways, so, I've contacted WWBW about a return, which they said they can arrange, but I wanted to try a different reed strength first...
Got my new reeds and my mouthpieces and played tonight...on the original CL4 I was playing 3.5s, so I got some 3s for my Series 13 CL4. I think the Series 13 likes the softer reeds. It was...a little less squeaky but...there was still some squeaking happening...but not on every reed. I don't know :( On one of the reeds that was working ok, boyfriend thought it sounded good. Is it that I'm adjusting? I don't know...
Does it make sense that the series 13 (which is a bigger mouthpiece overall) would do better with the softer reeds? Just curious.
Jury's still out.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-27 14:39
Theoretically no, the same facing SHOULD play the same as the non 13 series. It may be related to the flaw you found on the lay. Of course to achieve a lower tone, the mouthpiece has to have a larger tone chamber. This may contribute to more resistance but I have never had the occasion to experience just this one factor (tone chamber size) being altered from one mouthpiece to another.
Perhaps others on this Board have had the same Vandoren in a 13 version vs. a non 13 and can speak to resistance.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-04 06:26
Just wanted to pass along how obsessive I get sometimes.
I just received my very own copy of a Vandoren Masters CL4 in the "13" series (I wanted another CL4 anyway and with Summer quickly approaching I felt the lower pitch would be alright).
FINDINGS:
Firstly there is no associated greater resistance on the 13 version. In fact, that particular mouthpiece (Vandorens are manufactured pretty consistently these days but still have fluctuations from one "identical" mouthpiece to another) plays a little easier. This must merely be a function of some minor dimension difference of the lay or perhaps the baffle.
The more important issue is the tuning. I must confess that I DO NOT experience a significant difference in how the relationships of the notes play against one another (I assumed the 13 would invariably have a "flatter-than-correctable" short tube character) vs. the the non-13 series. So that pitch issue is fine.
The 13 series CL4 is flatter though, enough to require moving down at least one millimeter in barrel length. The weather in my area is already warmer and I am pulling out a good bit with the non-13 CL4 on a Buffet Devine and the 66mm barrel. Moving to the 13 series version it required the use of the provided 65mm barrel and I only pulled out about 2mm (maybe a bit less). I am not sure the 13 series would even work with the 65mm barrel in the Winter !!!
I still recommend avoiding the burden of the 'flatter' mouthpieces unless you enjoy spending more money on barrels.
...........................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-04-05 01:46)
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