 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bryanwalker
Date: 2015-03-23 00:18
Hey everyone,
I'm a serious amateur oboist looking to get back into playing clarinet. I played jazz clarinet (in a dixieland band) while I was in high school but gave it up to solely focus on the oboe in college. I have missed playing jazz, so I want to pick up the clarinet again. I was looking at buying a Backun Alpha clarinet. I have heard many good things about backun and the price for these clarinets is very inciting ($600 for a demo model and $700 for brand new at Kessler Music). I was hoping a few people here could give me some unbiased thoughts on these horns.
I previously played on Selmer Series 9 and Balanced Tone clarinets. While I loved that vintage "Selmer sound", the intonation was hit or miss with those older horns. One of the major requirements I have in looking for a clarinet is a nice, even, predictable scale.
Thanks!
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Author: James S
Date: 2015-03-23 02:32
Second Tyler's recommendation. The Lyrique's scale is uncannily even and predictable. It's like a clarinet, but without the normal flukes of a clarinet. As an oboist I'm sure you don't wanna have to deal with another woodwind's idiosyncrasies
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-03-23 04:46
I observe a bit of Ridenour "hype" on this forum. ;-)
Tom Ridenour cannot defy the law of physics. For all clarinets with one register key, the wide twelfths have to be placed somewhere.
The three copies of Lyriques/Libertas I have tested have had flat E4-F4-F#4 with the E4 at least 10 cents flat. That tone is commonly used and has to be fingered on those clarinets when exposed. So far I prefer a "traditional" flat F3 instead, even though it cannot be fingered.
I haven't played any Backun clarinet. For excellent tuning and affordable price, I'd go for a used professional level Leblanc.
Post Edited (2015-03-23 04:48)
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-03-23 05:20
Another related alternative (Leblanc and largely a predecessor to Alpha) is Leblanc Bliss designed by Backun.
My son uses plastic Bliss in a band and is very happy with it - synthetic pads are really nice.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-03-23 14:15
Tyler,
>I haven't observed such tuning tendencies- it is important to test these >clarinets with a very neutral playing technique. Very strange that those >pitches are flat for you.
They are not flat for me. They are flat. If you own a Ridenour clarinet and apply a neutral playing technique they are flat for you too.
As I said, Tom Ridenour cannot defy the laws of physics. He can only move around the 12ths, not eliminate them.
Sound sample of the Libertas and discussion here:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=412784&t=412784
>You do know that Ridenour designed the Leblanc clarinets you are
>referring to, correct?
Yes, I know. I can only speculate why there is a difference between his instruments and Leblanc's. Leblanc might have had a bigger focus on intonation than Ridenour has when he is on his own.
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Author: FrankC15
Date: 2015-03-23 17:38
All the above recommendations aside. To answer your original question, yes these clarinets are really great. I purchased one last year from Dave to use for a lot of outdoor concerts last summer. It performed flawlessly. With the right mouthpiece, this clarinet plays beautifully and intonation wise is certainly as good if not better than any clarinet I've owned or tried. Yes there are many other options out there,but if your looking for a solid clarinet that will perform well without having to hunt down that perfect specimen, then this one is for you. As a side note, Dave Kessler is a joy to work with. Talk to him about what you are looking for and he will do his best to deliver. I am in no way affiliated with either kessler music or Backun, but have been a very satisfied and happy customer of both. Good luck picking up the clarinet again. Welcome back.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-03-25 05:12
My Libertas (and clarinets in general) is somewhat more sensitive to MP and reeds in achieving the highest register in tune. I have found that real cane reeds, such as VD blue box bring the pitch up somewhat with a selected MP.
You have to modify and experiment with your fingerings a bit to get the best out of tuning. But it is easier to achieve on the Libertas than the Buffet, IMHO.
It is true that the E-flat, E, F and F# are slightly flat, but not more than about -10 cents for the worst note (that's pretty good), and that's fingered with the "high school fingerings". The D and D-sharp are in tune, and the D doesn't need the RH-pinky E-flat key ... so you don't have to switch over when going from C-sharp to D, making the fingering easier.
I usually finger the E with the RH-pinky C key, instead of the E-flat key, and this brings the pitch right on and has a nicer timbre. When I have time, to bring the F up to pitch, I'll use the "long" fingering, the RH sliver key or the throat A key ... so three choices on that one. The high G is right on. You can also use the sliver key on the E and F-sharp.
With a little practice and equipment experimentation, you can play well in tune.
I mostly use Legere reeds, which, IMHO have a tendency to play slightly flat in the top register ... but still I am able to manage the tuning.
You can (I hate to say it) BITE a little and fix some flatness, as well ...
Most clarinets I own have an altissimo tuning curve that looks like a profile of the Rocky Mountains, but more a tendency for most notes to be sharp, with a flat F. It's much harder to compensate using fingering for instruments with such rough intonation..
I still vote for the Ridenour ... but I'd like to sit down and carefully compare the Alpha, Bliss and Lyrique.
You know, it's a CLARINET! Not gonna be perfect everywhere ... but some designs are more successful or at least more user friendly than others.
Your mileage my vary, because I use a pretty easy setup with no biting and not a lot of back pressure (I am an old man!) ... so others may not experience this very slight flatness on the Lyrique Libertas. A stiffer reed might perfectly fix this small concern.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-03-25 05:35)
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Author: dibble
Date: 2015-03-25 10:35
Maybe it is just the one I have but my Lyrique Bb has an EXTREMELY sharp low e.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-03-25 18:43
I pull the bell, slightly. Not for tuning, but because the slight gap seems to improve the sound ... might act kinda like the voicing groove found in some bells?
Yeah, the low E is a couple of cents sharp on mine as an average. This depends on reed, MP, temperature, how much you have warmed up and what range of instrument played on, what you had for breakfast, space weather, low flying crows ...
Clarinets don't play in tune ... clarinetists do!
And BTW, on my previous post, I was referring to tuning in the altissimo range, not the top of the chalumeau (throat) range. My throat tones on the Libertas are just fine ...
I have a local music store bringing in an Alpha for me to try again for an extended test ... could be one to add to collection, especially considering the street price of less than 700 bucks. I'll sit down with my old Korg tuner and just see how they tune ...
Tom
Post Edited (2015-03-25 18:52)
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2015-03-26 19:50
Those clarinets with E,F, and F#4 in tune with the natural fingerings produce tones that color poorly and have reduced resonance when compared to other tones above and below them. But, when the resonance combinations are added to these fingerings when the natural combination is slightly low they not only become perfectly in tune, they have tonal clarity, flexibility, depth, and resonance the equal to every other tone on that clarinet. If resonance fingerings are added to these same tones that a re built in tune with the natural fingerings they produce equal tonal improvement, but the tuning is ruined because of the resulting sharpness.
Of course, in rapid passages the natural fingerings are always used and tuning is no issue at all. But on sustained, exposed tones you want your best timbre and clarity, not just your best tuning. By building the natural fingerings of these throat tones a bit low and adding resonance fingerings to them when sustained you get the very best of both worlds; great tuning and great timber.
It is easy for people, when speaking about tuning, to forget that the clarinet tone is not just about tuning. And the ideal solution should result in optimum tuning, timbre, flexibility, stability,color, resistance and resonance. ALL these things should be taken into account in any analysis attempting to be thoroughgoing.
THE DILEMMA OF THE UPPER LEFT HAND TONES The compromise causing the e,f,f#4 throat tones to be inferior in timbre, resonance, resistance and flexibility is the result of the tones these tone holes must produce a 12 higher (left hand clarion b and c). These upper clarion tones need support and adequate resistance to keep them from sounding shrill, thin, and unfocused, preventing undertoning (grunting), having proper depth, and stability in color and shape in dynamic changes. Some of the needed support and resistance of these upper clarion tones is supplied by good register key design. But the register key cannot do it all because of harmful effects that would result elsewhere on the clarinet.
Thus, the compromise, favoring as it should the upper clarion tones is called for. Why? Because the clarion is the SOLO register, and every provision should be made to make it as perfect as possible in every respect.
TWO SOLUTIONS (ONE INADEQUATE) The timbral sacrifice of e,f, and f#4 is the result of such an understanding, with player skill providing the perfect solution. But no such perfect solution is possible, player generated or otherwise, if the upper chalumeau tones are build perfectly in tune but with inferior resonance, flexibility, color, and depth.
My solution to the dilemma of the different needs of the upper chalumeau and upper clarion corollaries provides the possibility of optimum results for both sets of tones.
Regarding the low E, on some 576 clarinets the low E is a bit high, and can be improved by pulling the bell. On other individual 576 clarinets the low E is extremely well in tune, as is its 12th corollary, commonly known as "bell B."
It is important to note that, not included in this section of what I assume is a whole review, is the observation that the tuning between the low F and right hand clarion C is virtually perfect on the 576, as is the tuning between low G and RH clarion D, and that the right hand 12ths are perfect, with no hint of right hand chalumeau sharpness or pitch instability--something very rare for clarinets at any price level.
The extremely flat low F on the leading models of extremely expensive Bb clarinets has been commonly accepted as something clarinet players have to "live with." There is no known no solution save for more keys and holes to be added for the player to have to manipulate--and even that doesn't work in every case, because the correction design is flawed.
In contradistinction, the 576 produces a superior tuning ratio between low F and RH clarion C with the standard mechanism, and it often turns out to be superior to clarinets costing four times more with all kinds of added hardware. (To Selmer's credit I find the Signature also has an outstanding RH F/c 12th using only the standard mechanism. Kudos to Selmer, as always, and their wonderful clarinets.) But, their cost is considerably more than what the Lyrique 576 offers with equal features, and, in my experience, a superior, more fluid response and tuning in the lower altissimo.
And, finally, I believe it is important to consider the following. The clarinet seems to be the only instrument I can name where players, professional players, seem to think they should be able to play the clarinet on a high artistic level using only the fingerings found on the chart they used in beginning band.
There is a certain irony here, because the clarinet, of all woodwinds with the exception of the bassoon, offers the widest variety of choices that enable the thoughtful and skilled clarinetist to play the clarinet to an amazing degree of both technical and artistic perfection in every respect. The standard Bb clarinet, when properly and thoughtfully designed, is nothing short of a miracle of economy, simplicity, and perfection. But the clarinetist must get involved with some degree of learning and understanding. But don't expect clarinetists who achieve this high level to limit themselves to the fingering chart found in the Rubank or Belwin beginning band book.
I can, with the greatest of ease, play the 576 with virtual tuning perfection in all its registers, with minimal adjustments (done mainly with tongue position and a few fingering combinations). If an old, over the hill clarinet player can do that who doesn't have time to devote to every day practice (or at all), surely these young Turks should find the 576 a piece of cake to play and control on a very high level--and many do.
Regarding playing comfort; that is the remark we get most of all from our customers because of the superior evenness of response and stability of the 576...so we must be doing something right in our attempt to think comprehensively about the clarinet and clarinet acoustics.
Tom Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: dibble
Date: 2015-03-26 20:35
My low E on my 576 is not a little bit sharp. I said it is EXTREMELY sharp. The F above is not bad. And, no, I do not "bite."
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-03-27 05:17
Many thanks, T.R., for your post (and videos).
The Selmer "Seles Presence" also has F3/C5 in tune and a flat E4 (-10 on the copy I tested).
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-03-27 18:59
Thanks to Tom Ridenour for the extended post on clarinet design compromises ...
I do use resonance fingers on many notes, automatically ... to the point of occasionally causing technique issues by not "switching off" these extra keys during fast passages.
Not really noticed tuning issues as some others have posted ... other than having to bring the pitch up slightly in the altissimo on a couple of notes. Overall, the Lyrique Libertas can be played well in tune with little fuss.
Sorry for my confusion on not understanding the convention used in this BBS for stating correct octave ...
Tom
Post Edited (2015-03-27 19:01)
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The Clarinet Pages
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![[E4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e4.gif)
-![[F4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/f4.gif)
-![[F#4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/gb4.gif)
using brackets. These are the flat tones on the Libertas/Lyrique.![[E3]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e3.gif)
can be slightly sharp on the same clarinet, is that Tom Ridenour must have decided to place the widest 12ths on the upper left hand. The good news is that you can pull the bell and bring the E3 down.