 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-03-20 19:34
Hi All Bass Clarinet Players,
I'm finishing up a stint on bass clarinet with a very fine local concert band and have run into a reed problem. Our weekly rehearsal go a pretty solid two-hours with no break and in the later part of rehearsals, my reeds have been getting pretty waterlogged. They play well for the first hour but to have a reed last the whole rehearsal is not a common occurrence.
I do empty out the neck often and slip a piece of paper into the MP to dry the back of the reed. But after about an hour and a half, the reed closes up. For a concert, no problem as there are rest between selections and the time is much shorter.
My preferred reed is a Rico Royal #3 on a Roger Garrett MO mouthpiece with a VD M|O ligature (in black BTW). Is it time to change brands or go to a synthetic reed? Maybe just change reeds mid-rehearsal?
I have also consider embouchure fatigue but I've got pretty resilient chops.
Cheers,
Hank
PS At last night's rehearsal in another band, I played my Bb soprano on the same reed with no problems. This is the usual situation.
Post Edited (2015-03-21 00:48)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-03-20 20:07
Assuming these aren't fresh-out-of-the-box reeds, the simplest solution would be to change reeds at some point during the rehearsal.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-20 20:26
Yeah, I'm assuming reeds that have not been properly 're-hydrated.' You need to play on new reeds for only a few minutes per day for about four to five days straight. It is only after that period that a reed will "hold together" for extended play periods.
I don't know what your local humidity is doing in Ohio, but the problem with reeds not being broken-in correctly only gets worse when the indoor humidity is LOW (during the Winter) in the 30% or lower range.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-20 20:39
Hank, I wish no desire to be pedantic merely for pedantic's sake.
When you say you played the same reed on your Bb that you did your bass clarinet, are you saying the same "brand" (Rico Royal) of reed, or "another non-synthetic?"
(Clearly your two described instruments normally use different mouthpieces and reed sizes, right?)
Some players report greater success with minimizing water logging by running a wet finger on the reed upon its initial trial to "close the pores," or perhaps more appropriate stated, bend down and off microfragments of wood left behind by the cutting process.
Are you using "waterlogged," quite literally, or more so as a catch phrase to describe something that many of us tend to experience and report after playing a single reed for too long during a session, only to put that reed away and come back to it at a later point and find it fine. Is your watterlogged reed then, in your opinion, ruined, or is it likely to work after having dried out over a period of time?
Of course synthetics will make true waterlogging an impossibilty, but plenty of players report similar phenomenon of a synthetic needing a rest after consistent play during a session, only to be fine thereafter, until the reed wears out completely many days later.
How do you store reeds? Do you keep them in a humidity controlled environment?
===
Mine is hardly the last work in play, but I keep reeds at 72% [absolute] humidity. I wet them only a second before play. Fearing water accumulation affecting my play, I am forever sucking in on the mouthpiece (on a Soprano Bb or A clarinet) before a phrase, to clear it of water. During breaks in play that you may not have, I may take a mouthpiece off and blow out the other end to vacate it of water, and swab the clarinet frequently, blowing on tone holes I've opened, known to collect water. I also tend to swallow saliva before play: which of course does not prevent the water vapor that results during the exhaling portion of respiration.
The makers of the ReedGeek, which I bear no financial relationship with, have supplemented their product, which helps to, among other things, keep reed tables flat, with a gauge and plaque for making sure the reed follows the mouthpiece table's symmetry.
http://www.reedgeek.com/gauge-and-plaque/
http://www.reedgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/PlaqueInstructions.pdf
Larger single reed instrument players (saxophonists, base clarinetists) seem to like this device. Maybe as your reed collects water it becomes more assymmetrical and could benefit from adjustment while wet (even if this is done at home, not on stage.)
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Author: William
Date: 2015-03-20 22:25
Hi Hank, one word of advice.......synthetic. I play on some Forestone prototype bass clarinet reeds that are fantastic, but as far as I know, have never been offered to the public. I also use some Legere reeds in rotation with the Forestones and have never been "let down". My mouthpiece is a Walter Grabner CX_BS model and my bass is a Buffet low C Prestige. I have not used cane reeds for nearly five years on any of my clarinets or saxophones and have never had the soggy reed blues. Cheers........
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2015-03-20 22:57
I might suggest another possible cause - and that is neck angle. I have noticed the same thing happen to me, but it has been most pronounced when I am playing my Selmer contra alto. It is an older model 40 that has a flat neck angle - the mouthpiece is parallel to the floor and it encourages water to collect near the mouthpiece. The reed will get very wet and then you have all the issues associated with that.
Modern bass clarinets - especially the professional models, have steep neck angles (presumably to set the mouthpiece in a position closer to soprano clarinets) which allows water to drain away from the mouthpiece much more easily. Older model bass clarinets, especially those with one-piece necks, have a tendency to have a much shallower neck angle. This allows water to collect much closer to the mouthpiece and cause problems with over-wet reeds.
For me the waterlogging only becomes a problem when I have a fairly long stretch of playing without a break of at least a few minutes. When I know that I will be playing a program with a lot of extended playing I will usually choose a harder reed - it doesn't solve the issue, but at least they don't tend to close off like softer reeds do.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-03-20 23:19
Mark,
I think you have captured the essence of the situation perfectly.
"For me the waterlogging only becomes a problem when I have a fairly long stretch of playing without a break of at least a few minutes. When I know that I will be playing a program with a lot of extended playing I will usually choose a harder reed - it doesn't solve the issue, but at least they don't tend to close off like softer reeds do." For shorter practice session at home, I do not experience the problem. My heavy two-hour rehearsals at the root of the problem and I do not choose to do the regimen at home.
And William your advice has always been right on track as well; it is time to do Benjamin was told in the Graduate "plastics." KDK, if I had to use a reed right out of the box, it would be a desperation move. I do spend an extended period conditioning all my reeds. Dave, I use VD, Gonzalez, and Rico Reserve on Bb. It would seem that Rico Royals reeds are genetically related to the phylum Porifera.
I have some stiffer reeds that I will try for next week's rehearsal. However, I hope I have the breath capacity for it!!!
HRL
PS I just looked in my reed locker and found an unopened box of La Voz MH BC reeds.
Post Edited (2015-03-20 23:28)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-03-20 23:34
Dr. Hank, with all due respect, Rico Royals are some of the worst reeds on the planet. Do yourself a favor and try Vandorens, or Marcas, or Glotins, or Rigottis, or even Rico Grand Concerts (or whatever they're called now, Giardinelli maybe?). Rico Royals will die after about 10 minutes of playing, they're made of garbage cane and are cut way too thin.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-03-21 00:46
DS,
I wish you would be more descriptive in your comments (garbage cane, worst on the planet, etc.); you are so very shy. LOL.
Point taken! I do want my last days on bass clarinet to be great but as you well know, I'm really cheap.
HRL
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2015-03-21 01:31
I too experience reed & embouchure fatigue during long (2+hrs) warm up & rehearsals. If I know the rehearsal is going to be a workout, I go with a softer reed (2-1/2 V12 on Grabner LB mpc) and hold back a bit on the playing, but also keep 1 or 2 reeds ready to take over if one collapses (it often happens suddenly). For concert I use Gonzalez 3 (very slightly harder) if I want a more mellower tone (not slapping the reed against the mpc) and those options work for me. Rico seems to only work for shorter periods with less dynamics and upper note range (and uniformity).
I also rotate my reeds, never playing the same one 2 days in a row. (I number & date them, put a post-it in the reed case w/ comments about each, and mourn the passing of a great sounding, reliable reed.)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-03-21 05:57
BflatBH,
You are right that "it happens suddenly."
I think I'm going to work with slightly stiffer La Voz MH reeds. My next concert is about 6 weeks away and I think I have enough new arrows in my quiver (aka better cane in my Reedguard) from all this great feedback.
Thanks everyone,
HRL
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Author: Zenia
Date: 2015-03-22 18:45
William: as an avid proponent of synthetic reeds, wonder if you might describe your experience with the newish Legere Signature bass clarinet reeds?
Cheers,
Zack
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Author: William
Date: 2015-03-22 20:24
Hi Zenia, sorry....but I have not tried the Legere Sig's on bass. This afternoon I will be playing a symphony concert on Bb and bass and will be using Forestone reeds on both instruments. I have tried the Sig's on my soprano but do not like them. For my bass, Legere trads, 2.3 & 3.0 work "OK", but not nearly as good as the prototype Forestones. I do wish the Japanese would put those reeds on the market along with their excellent soprano and sax reeds.
FWIW, the tone quality of Legere reeds generally becomes "tubby" in the upper registers whereas the Forestones maintain a very nice resonate quality throughout the entire clarinet range. But you need to find the "right" mouthpiece with a close facing. Mine are Walter Grabners: K11* for my sopranos and CX_BS for my bass.
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Author: bassklarinetrrrr
Date: 2015-03-24 04:10
Hank,
Have you tried the Rico Reserve Classics? I play them exclusively with my Buffet low C Prestige, Walter Grabner mthpc, and BG traditional ligature, and I've never had this problem you describe! Definitely try thicker reeds and rotate them as often as possible; bass clarinet reeds do such weird things if not treated properly. I've also gotten in the habit of keeping my cap on my instrument anytime I'm not playing it. Prevents warpage, etc.
Some folks say Legere is also a great option for bass, but I'm not a fan.
Good luck!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-03-24 15:37
Bassklarinetrrrr,
Great ideas and a change of reeds is underway. I just had a two hour rehearsal last evening and it went well. The secret was I used some La Voz M and MH reeds which I happened to have in my reed locker. I played the same reed for the entire time but had several others ready to enter the game if needed.
I've used Rico Reserve reeds in the past on Bb soprano clarinet with good results so your idea resonates very well with me. I even had a couple of very old Hines Supreme tenor sax reeds that I bought when I went to college many decades ago; they played great.
All in all a stiffer and a better reed seems to be the answer. I am trying Legere reeds right now. My wife (not a musician but an avid and well informed listener) likes the sound a lot.
See my other thread about adjusting Legere reeds on bass clarinet.
HRL
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-24 16:24
Of course you already seem to like the Legere but I'd just throw out the suggestion to try a Fibracell (you may need to up the strength by a half or even a whole over the Legere). I have found these to be more "reedy" sounding synthetics for bass.
Glad to hear you've found a solution!
..............Paul Aviles
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