 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: klarnetk
Date: 2015-03-21 18:34
Hello all these days i have problem with my Embouchure and i can not find any solution and i need help. İm playing clarinet since 1999 im pro player When i play on orchestra there is no problem with my Embouchure but last months when i try to give solo concert (Recital) my lips getting tired after 1hour and air leak come from sides of my mouth and i can not hold clarinet on my lips. i must stop i cant play anymore because of tired chin and lips:( interesting is i start everyday with long tones, scales thirds. Etc... İ can not find any solution somedays i play 4 hours with no problem but next day after 20 munites im off starting air leak:( what is the problem? And how can i fixes this? İ dont think its about my setup or mouthpiece because when i start no problem it happens after an hour or so...
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-03-21 20:43
Could it be that an orchestral setting gives you more mini-breaks (like four bars of rests) than in a recital?
Could it be that the tension of performing solo in front of an audience is eating you?
Could it be you're getting older, just like all of us?
I honestly don't know. Maybe it's a mental thing blocking you, and your body says "I don't want to do this right now".
Maybe you should ask someone to watch you a bit closer while performing, maybe you're getting all tightened up.
May your usual strength return soon!
--
Ben
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Author: klarnetk
Date: 2015-03-21 23:20
İ dont know i feel its about getting tired Embouchure because when i got recital or solo concert i work very hard everyday i start with long tones then baermann scales third and etc. And all during about 45 munites İ never stop untıl my mouth gets airleak from sides then i give rest for 20 munites and start again from scales after these warm ups i start my solo parts mozart weber etc.. Some my friends say i study much maybe its from this. But i can not understand why one day i can play 2 hours without problem another day just 25 munites? İts interesting!! My setup is buffet crampon festival A and Bb with vandoren B45 Lyre mp and vandoren reed V12 3.5..
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-22 01:42
I certainly don't want to say that equipment changes will solve the problem BUT the mouthpiece you have chosen is about as open as you can get away with for classical playing. I also say this because many of my colleagues use smaller tip mouthpieces with the SAME strength reeds (usu. M13 to 5RV Lyre facings with some M30s thrown in for good measure).
Just taking YOUR set up, I would say that may be putting too much strain on the sides of your mouth. If your embouchure resembles (in ANY way) a "smile," then you are creating a situation where muscles are being put in opposition to one another that do not need to be working against each other. The better approach would be to think more of engaging the cheek muscles (what you use to get a thick chocolate shake through a straw), drawing the sides of your mouth DOWN and BACK. Your mouth should look more as if you were pronouncing the beginning of the word, "OEHLER." Or your mouth will look more like a parrot.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: klarnetk
Date: 2015-03-22 11:13
Let me give example about my routine day practice. İ start with long tone with metronome low E to 3rd octave B then backwards same to low E. Then i study baermann book scale exercises major and minors legato and same with tongue 130 metronome then i study thirds from same book. İts all duration is about 30-45 munites then i rest for 10 munites or sometimes going to lunch. After i come i start again with baerman book last pages there is some arpegiettos like E A C E A C for upper ability i make legato and repeat with tongue. Then i not rest and try to play my repearture mozart concerto, brahms sonate and some etudes. But some couple of months as i told my Embouchure gets off (down) and cant hold from my mouth because of air leaking and pain.
And its interesting but some day i can play 1 hour without problem and next day i can play just 20 munites after long tones my Embouchure cant collapse to mouthpiece airleak comes again. Sometimes i think maybe its from reeds because when i found good reed i feel i can play well enough time without pro lem but maybe this is Psychological
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-03-22 11:37
A friend of mine in NYC who plays trumpet very well told me something that the great Lew Soloff who just passed on had told him. Never play with tired chops. You will just damage them. It is good advice for any musician. When your muscles get tired it is natures way of telling you to stop. I play several woodwinds and a teacher in college told me to change from medium LaVoz reeds on tenor sax to Medium Hard. I did that for many years, but I was killing myself. I finally ignored the expert and switched back to medium strength and everything was fine.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-03-22 16:48
Sounds as though you're playing with too strong a reed. Also, the B45 wouldn't be my first choice. Have you tried any other mouthpieces?
Tony F.
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Author: klarnetk
Date: 2015-03-22 17:23
İ dont think its about mouthpiece because im using it for 15 years. :( tomorrow i will try with different new reeds maybe some soft reeds and just practice long tones and some warm up studys.
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Author: klarnetk
Date: 2015-03-22 17:29
Last week i buyed a equipment called P. E. T. E Embouchure Training Exerciser for Woodwinds from warburton company i will try to do exercises with this little tool i hope it will help to strenght my Embouchure.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-22 18:22
Kaya:
Is the fatigue and pain concentrated to one side of your face?
I'm just trying to rule out neurological conditions like Bell's Palsy, which tends to present itself as just such an assymetrical (1 side of face) condition.
Would you mind sharing your age with us? "No," is of course an entirely acceptable answer.
Feel better.
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Author: klarnetk
Date: 2015-03-22 18:33
İm 35 years and fatigue and pain is not from 1 side it happens after playing long times. Problem is i can not control my chin to shape its going up and loses control my chin muscles then starting air leak from sometimes left side some times right side and sound is fuzzy from reed. İt seems to me my chin muscles stop working after long period i just dont understand why because im practicing long tones and scales...
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-03-22 19:07
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> Is the fatigue and pain concentrated to one side of your face?
>
> I'm just trying to rule out neurological conditions like Bell's
> Palsy, which tends to present itself as just such an
> assymetrical (1 side of face) condition.
I once had a student in 5th grade (11 years old?) who came down with Bells Palsy.
We shouldn't be trying to diagnose a medical problem here, but this does bring in the dimension of a possible neurological or muscular issue. This is indeed a weird enough sounding problem to warrant a little outside-the-box (and outside-the-clarinet) thinking. If changes in practice routine don't provide a solution, a visit to the doctor to rule out any underlying physical problem might be a good idea, if only to eliminate that range of possibilities and drive the process back more certainly into the clarinet realm.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-22 20:38
Karl, agreed, medical diagnosis is for the doctor to make...my suggestion above coming from just such a professional who I also happen to call my wife.
(explanatory, not defensive, I realize you're not necessarily disagreeing)
I thought about posting this question days ago but also thought it wise to let the post run its course through the basic musical observations, of which I highly concur that playing a mouthpiece as open as a B45 would alone, raise my radar, but especially does so in light of reports by the OP of fatigue and pain.
And Kaya, only because you wouldn't believe the relevant things that posters leave out, (all while including details like "their mom's shoe size") I have to ask, have you had any dental work recently (particularly wisdom teeth removal) that might have caused temporary paresthesia? I had this when I had my wisdom teeth removed in my 20s. It goes away usually.
Really--it's not my first guess (paresthesia.) I'm just trying to rule it out.
In the world of diagnosis (of any kind...clarinet, medical) the saying, "when you hear huffs think horses not zebras" applies.
The "horse" answer here is to get yourself on a much closer faced/long rails based mouthpiece (recognizing that many factors, not just these two work towards making a mouthpiece harder or easily to blow through) like an M15, even an M30 if the M15 is too much of a transition for you on tip opening.
I happen to love the sound I get with an M30D (as in Deutch, but made compatible for Boehm clarinets). It's very covered and void of shrillness, as many players report, but your results can of course vary. A guy I know does a "killer" version of the Copland with it, which as you probably know, has elements of jazz in it too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbb7gr4kNWs
I'm not saying they aren't out there, but the only pro I know who currently plays a B45 is Naomi Drucker, wife of Stanley Drucker, former NY Philharmonic principle. Naomi is an excellent player who, as the story goes, got her B45 from a special lot when she visited 56 Rue Lepic: Vandoren's corporate offices. So who even knows how ner B45[ s] compare to a stock B45.
Speaking of NY Philharmonic former principles, even if they were only temporary, but still virtuosic, I like Mark Nuccio's feelings towards reeds: play on the weakest ones that don't affect your artistry.
Close that tip opening with another mouthpiece. Consider not changing reed strength, dare I say, bringing it down to a Vandoren "3." Make playing clarinet less of a physical strain.
Kaya, I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I do wish to make a point and metaphor. What do you think the doctor would say if you came in to his/her office and said, "doc, I've been lifting 350 pounds (read: B45) over my head for years, hours a day, and now it's become difficult?"
It would be the stuff of 1 liner cymbal crash jokes where you say, "doc, it hurts when I do this," and the doctor replies, "so don't do this."
Please note, I'm not just an anti B45 spokesperson, I'm also a "member" (of the brought up and raised on a B45 40 years ago). This is not meant to be disparaging of Vandoren, just this particular mouthpiece (I play an M15 now.)
The B45 was designed as an all purpose mouthpiece when the name Benny Goodman didn't result in the average person responding "Benny, who?" You don't need this all purpose mouthpiece. You need one for the classical repetoire. My hat's off to you that you've lasted this long on a B45 and been able to fast articulate with it. Once you get use to something like an M15, you will wonder how you did such articulation feats in the past.
If, after switching mouthpieces, such pain continues, do of course seek medical assistance [before or] after.
I know it stinks to have to suffer playing the instrument you love.
I have to ask...do you play with a cushion over your bottom teeth and do your bottom inside gums have trauma to them?
Feel better.
Post Edited (2015-03-22 20:40)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2015-03-23 13:38
klarnetk wrote:
>Last week i buyed a equipment called P. E. T. E Embouchure Training Exerciser for Woodwinds from warburton company i will try to do exercises with this little tool i hope it will help to strenght my Embouchure.
You exercise very long and intense and in combination with a B45 Lyre (which is a rather open mouthpiece) I don't think you can expect from yourself to strenghten your embouchure even more.
Try to think in the opposite direction: try to relax the embouchure a bit, probably by a somewhat closer mouthpiece. The B45 Lyre needs a strong reed to achieve a centered tone (in my experience). So lighter reeds on it will probably not work out well for you. May be a step down to a non-lyre B45 will be sufficient for you.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2015-03-23 21:39
I don't count myself as an equipment expert but my experience has been that "lip leak" tends to occur when my reed is getting too soft and soggy - so I change reeds.
Vanessa.
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