 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-09 21:07
Narcissism, for those of you for which it’s been a while since your last class in Psychology, is, simply put, a condition where people tend to value themselves, especially compared with others, at too high a level relative to the overall population.
This is by no means to say that self love is bad. In actuality, it’s not only essential for survival, but necessary to some degree so that we may be well enough to help others (as opposed to the narcissist, who looks down on them.)
Trying to keep this very brief, I am skipping theories on what causes narcissism or why it may be rising, although the experts suggest environment and genetic predisposition are to blame. Rather, I care to note that many mental health experts seem to believe it on the rise, and wish to discuss below some of the attributes often associated with those afflicted.
Narcissists tend to be materialistic, treating all things, including people, as objects. They also tend to be impatient, compulsive, materialistic, and in need of immediate self gratification for their efforts. They don’t take criticism well, and are known to lie to make themselves appear better than they are.
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With this said, it would seem to me, that if narcissism is truly on the rise, (and I hope for many reasons it is not) that clarinet (all instrument) play will suffer. Clarinet play is almost opposite, IMHO, to the traits that narcissists have and desire. It takes a lot of work to progress on clarinet and you can’t fake your way during auditions. The narcissist can switch teachers only so many times before fingers get pointed at the student being the limiting factor.
Still more, teachers aren’t respected (as they are human, and all other beings are not respected), and suggestions on improvement to play are seen as highly personal offending criticism. Lastly, you can’t buy your way to success, as fancy gear suffers quick limits to improvement in the early player.
Given this, I can’t help but conclude that if Narcissism is on the rise, the overall level of clarinet play will suffer. Of course we will still have our geniuses, if also less enthusiasts.
Rather than debating whether people are becoming more selfish, for simplicity, let’s try to assume they are (much as I hope they aren’t.)
What do YOU think such social changes will have on the world of clarinet play?
Much as I respect the right for these periodicals to exist, I do fear the first clarinet ad in GQ or Vogue magazines.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-09 22:24
Geez, I hope this isn't another "Straw Man" or "Red Herring" or such.
But I have observed over the years that those with poor self esteem (if you can call that the opposite of narcissism) are in also in poor shape to take control over that portion of their lives that concern music an music performance.
It can somewhat be a "chicken or the egg" argument with some degree of success necessary on your instrument to develop the ego enough to continue and to improve, however I am convinced one needs to have a "healthy" amount of ego to develop a high degree of performance ability.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2015-03-09 22:44
"But I have observed over the years that those with poor self esteem (if you can call that the opposite of narcissism) are in also in poor shape to take control over that portion of their lives that concern music an music performance."
I resemble that remark
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-10 08:51
Must be tired. Posted to wrong thread.
...........Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-03-10 08:53)
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Author: ned
Date: 2015-03-10 09:41
''I resemble that remark''
I first heard my brother utter this, and laughed out loud...I don't think did a ''LOL'' though... ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-10 16:31
Paul:
I get what you're saying (all while taking shots at my post) but the opposite of poor self esteem is confidence: which is something healthy to have and necessary to [musical] performance.
It's confidence that's markedly disproportionately high compared to the population, where narcisisstic traits, if not the full blown ailment, begin to show their signs.
Confidence: Being able to audition against some of the best but not assured in your mind of winning.
Narcissism: Truely believing the judges were paid off when you lost, despite everyone in agreement that you did no way as good as the winner.
Putting my concerns into a concise and age appropriate context, I am worried about the "yeah, but isn't there an 'app' for that," type response from a child first encouraged to take up an instrument, perhaps not much different than how the ability to do long hand math declined with the advent of the portable and affordable calculator of the 1970s.
Post Edited (2015-03-10 16:35)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-10 17:59
I think you are confusing narcissism with paranoia and cynicism.
Honestly though, if a student's concerns are outside of what is going on musically or clarinet-wise, he/she won't stick with it long enough to cause her/himself or others too much grief.
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-03-10 20:17)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-10 23:28
Paul:
I believe your first sentence immediately above to be just plain old wrong. While it's true that narcissists often exhibit paranoia: most commonly that of being discovered/exposed as merely ordinary, paranoia is experienced by many individuals at times, with or without narcissism or other personality disorders. To prephrase, paranoia is a symptom of many people, some of which are narcissists.
Cynicism, or the belief that others are selfish, or in this case becoming more selfish is the work of mental health professionals I merely cite here. By design, I deliberately left out discussion of whether their findings here are accurate, or detailing some of the things that may explain narscissm's rise (e.g. people answering personality inventories more accurately today than in the past, kids who are a product of the "you are special" generation.)
If you meant the terms applying to me, I leave your opening remarks above about another post you didn't get but others did, where we probably should share blame, not have it assigned solely to me, as my defense.
Let's take this to email if you wish, off the board.
As for your second sentence, I agree, as you seem to have restated the very problem I cite. In other words: if self absorption is on the rise, which is something we both see as negatively affecting clarinet interest, ethusiasm for the instrument will be on the decline.
Post Edited (2015-03-11 00:50)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-11 05:02
Actually I still think pure self absorption is kinda a necessary ingredient to being a master musician. Have you talked to any good brass players lately?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-03-11 05:13
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Actually I still think pure self absorption is kinda a
> necessary ingredient to being a master musician. Have you
> talked to any good brass players lately?
>
Do you think they'd hear you?
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-11 05:36
I don't see where you talk of self absorption above to 'still think it,' and while I agree that the advancing artist is required to spend much time working on themselves, rather than others (i.e. act selfish), prioritizing yourself/acting selfish/being absorbed in your own world, and false belief in your superiority (narcissm) are two seperate things.
The former is essential to advancement, the latter, I have submitted detrimental, and othewise the crux of this thread. The devoted but non-narcissistic musician doesn't seek to sabotage other musician's opportunities, even if devotion to studies prevent them from being the next "Mother Teresa" of selflessness. To the narcisstist, on the other hand, sabotage is part of their toolbox.
You describe some attributes of the narcissist, but do not necessarily the narcissist make, that are consistent with musicians trying to "make it." For example, both share paranoia: the musician fearful the next child prodigy is going to be better than them, and narcisstist fearful someone is going to expose them as the fraud they in fact are.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-11 06:21
Taken from Wikipedia (we need not look for anything more authoritative since this IS the internet):
"Narcissism is the pursuit of gratification from vanity or egotistic admiration of one's own attributes. The term originated from the Greek mythology, where the young Narcissus fell in love with his own image reflected in a pool of water.
Narcissism is a concept in psychoanalytic theory, introduced in Sigmund Freud's On Narcissism. The American Psychiatric Association has the classification narcissistic personality disorder in its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).
Narcissism is also considered a social or cultural problem. It is a factor in trait theory used in some self-report inventories of personality such as the Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory. It is one of the three dark triadic personality traits (the others being psychopathy and Machiavellianism).
Except in the sense of primary narcissism or healthy self-love, narcissism is usually considered a problem in a person or group's relationships with self and others. Narcissism is not the same as egocentrism."
So I fall into the first paragraph definition and the last mention of "healthy self-love."
I suppose I stand corrected if we define narcissism as a cultural problem.
But I hope I am thinking of the bigger picture here. Most students come into the studio all worked up about either "not measuring up" or they are just not prepared for the week's review. I believe the world would be a FAR better place if MORE students took on a bit more EGO and just worked at being "the best" rather than fret.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-03-11 06:44
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> For example, both share
> paranoia: the musician fearful the next child prodigy is going
> to be better than them, and narcisstist fearful someone is
> going to expose them as the fraud they in fact are.
I think paranoia may be misused in this discussion. Paranoia involves the perception and fear of things that aren't really there - "people" are trying to kill me, or "someone" is listening to everything I do and say with microphones that have been surgically implanted in my body ("the government is listening to my phone calls and reading my emails" may or may not evidence paranoia), or voices are telling me to do things.
The fact is that the next child prodigy may well be better than I am (in my case, there's not even a question). Someone may well be trying and may succeed in exposing me as a complete fraud (I hope not, but it could happen). These are not groundless fears, especially for someone who *isn't* really God's gift to the world of music and really *is* to any extent a self-promoted fraud.
I don't think, parenthetically, that a true narcissist fears being exposed or bettered - he is in fact surprised, even shocked, and denies when it happens, rationalizing it as the result of something other than his own inadequacy, something out of his control.
Narcissus, after all, became so completely absorbed with affection for the object he saw in the water (in reality his own reflection) that he drowned trying to attain it.
A narcissist, I would think, is unable in his self-absorption to notice or interact meaningfully with the rest of the world, a mono-focus that inevitably leads to self-destruction more likely than comeuppance. We have other, more everyday words for people who are self-centered and seemingly insensitive to or in denial of their own failings, which is what Dave seems to describe in his original post. These people are often acting out of a misdirected compensation for underlying feelings of insecurity and inadequacy (if we're invoking psychology), whether real or imagined. Narcissism may be too strong a term for ordinary egotism.
There are certainly a lot of egotistical performers (in all the arts). That hasn't changed in centuries. The tendency of recent decades in the U.S. (I don't know about anywhere else) to reward effort with no regard to result is, IMHO, a passing fad that will necessarily exhaust itself. The sense of entitlement to success regardless of achievement that results from this tendency will also necessarily end of its own unproductiveness. Whether or not clarinet (or any other traditional instrument) playing will continue to be needed to support musical activity may not depend so much on the rise of narcissism or egotism but more on the evolution of the skill sets needed for whatever music performance becomes in the future.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-11 16:58
Let's put some faces and examples to this though.
I'd say that Clark Brody was a great example of a super talented musician who came off as the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet. He'd never make a student or colleague feel ill at ease; you could ask him anything and you'd feel comfortable about it. That said, he was very at ease on stage, all alone, doing a lecture. This is not your typical life scenario. Not many people would be able to speak, let alone do a clarinet demonstration on a bare stage at Orchestra Hall Chicago in front of a large crowd as if you were just going to the store to pick up some milk.......but he did. To me that takes supreme confidence in who you are what you are doing and not being the least bit phased by anyones possible critical glare or body language. This may not be narcissism by Freud's definition, but it takes a lot of extra self confidence your average guy ain't got.
Now let's consider Robert Marcellus. Also for the most part a really nice guy who happened to be really talented and super smart. He did, however, have a way of telling it like it is, or making one feel small or uncomfortable in his impatience with those who did not have his insight or talent (sometimes). Marcellus also had no qualms charging more than most clarinet teachers in the world for lessons (he certainly charged far more for private lessons than Clark Brody or even Larry Combs). Only someone with a feeling of "more than average self worth" could do that. But that certainly didn't price him out of the market (people where willing to pay that) and I am not saying he wasn't worth it ...... it just took a lot of chutzpa.
And I have run into some examples over the year of those who "put on" an air of superiority when it was obviously "out of place," but that is (whatever the correct psychological term is I don't know for sure) more a defense mechanism for those who have insecurity boiling almost out of control just under the surface.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-11 17:31
"Taken from Wikipedia (we need not look for anything more authoritative since this IS the internet):"
Paul I speak in terms of the DSM-V criteria for juging whether people suffer from the personality disorder, not how narcissism is described as a mere omnipresent personality trait.
"Narcissism is the pursuit of gratification from vanity or egotistic admiration of one's own attributes."
To some extent, as I've claimed, we all have healthy and necessary aspects of narcissism in us. I speak of situations where 1) it is out of control in the individual relative to the population at large (i.e. NPD), and 2) the level of these pursuits is on the rise within the population, or, as you put it Paul, the very cultural problem for which you stand corrected if that's what I am referring to.
That you wish students came to lessons better prepared, [and often as a result of which] more confident, and less worried about making mistakes is a sentiment I trust is shared by many teachers. Part of our job, I think, is to, through positive reinforcement, motivate and support our student's confidence levels. Also IMHO, doing so is about first honestly praising what our students got right, but then following this praise up with places we'd like to see improvement.
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Karl: As usual, I agree with your sentiments, but perhaps I need to clarrify mine.
When I wrote about the musician, and I know of plenty of them, fearful that the next "child" prodigy is going to unseat them, I meant to imply that the challenger is still, quite literally, a child: perhaps brilliantly gifted for their age, likely to surpass many existing virtuosos some day, but today, simply lacking in the experience to surpass a master. You are quite correct though that the child prodigy, now an adult, has quite the possibility of unseating the existing master, which by definition would make the master's concern of being "overthrown" realistic, and by futher definition, quintessentially not paranoid.
Between the rituals with which some of us do things on clarinet that have no underlying benefit, "the to looking over our shoulders so of us do," players of this "magical black stick" have been known to suffer from both notable amounts of ego and self doubt.
"Whether or not clarinet (or any other traditional instrument) playing will continue to be needed to support musical activity may not depend so much on the rise of narcissism or egotism but more on the evolution of the skill sets needed for whatever music performance becomes in the future."
So true. Ironically sad though, between the decline in classical music interest in the States, and the possible rise in narcissism in the populous, perhaps less people will end up chasing even fewer profesional performance opportunities (sigh).
I know I'm not alone in belief that kids today need, on the one hand, to know how special they are to their parents and loved ones, but on the other hand, should be made to realize that countless other parents feel the same way about their kids, and that they are not more deserving or better than others, as evidenced by this viral video of a few years past. Being special takes talent and commitment. As you claim, the narcisstist (as in those with NPD) feel they already possess traits of positive specialness, and accordingly see no utiilty in seeking to acquire that they already feel they have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfxYhtf8o4
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-03-11 18:15
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> "Taken from Wikipedia (we need not look for anything more
> authoritative since this IS the internet):"
>
> Paul I speak in terms of the DSM-V criteria for juging whether
> people suffer from the personality disorder, not how narcissism
> is described as a mere omnipresent personality trait.
>
My god ... very few people on this BBoard are trained psychologists, and those who are have the decency to keep to clarinet posts.
While the topic might be interesting, it's more suited for a real project rather than glib discussion.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-11 20:38
Mark:
Narcissism the personality attribute that some have brought up, we all have to some degree. Narcissism the personality disorder though negatively affects interest in clarinet play I believe, and appears to be on the rise. That's all I've ever meant to say and that's how it's relevant to clarinets.
The rest was just trying to get people back to the ideas of the previous sentence.
But as you've suggested, nuf said, at least for me.
Post Edited (2015-03-11 20:39)
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