 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2015-02-21 23:26
Many people have talked on the BBoard about their positive experiences working with Dave Kessler and Kessler Music and because of that, I decided to do business with them.
To my disappointment, I haven't had the same experience with Kessler Music. I'm a clarinetist but I play flute casually. I contacted Dave and Chuck in November about purchasing a custom order flute that I was interested in. I was a bit annoyed that I was being talked to like I was a student needing their unsolicited guidance on what features I needed on an instrument and what not to order but after all, the majority of their sales I imagine are to young students needing guidance. Finally after a lot of chatter (and a couple weeks later and communication was jumbled between Dave and Chuck), Dave offered to order two of the instruments I wanted custom and offered me a great price I simply couldn't turn down.
He told me that he would get the instruments in by Christmas. Christmas went by and I heard nothing. Finally at the very end of December he sends me an email. Unfortunately by this time I had gotten pretty severely sick and the first five weeks of the new year were very unpleasant and I was in no condition to play and then I slipped and needed some unpleasant and very expensive dental surgery (not covered in insurance).
I made it a priority to recover both physically and financially in order to hold my agreement with Kessler. Starting Monday, I tried calling Dave to purchase a flute and have both sent out to me for trial. No response. Then the same two more times during the week. Finally I got a response from Dave:
As confirmed by an employee, neither of the custom instruments ordered for me had been sold and they were both in stock so when talking to Dave today, I thought he would have been glad to hear from me as I was going to purchase the flute.
I was ASTOUNDED when he told me that he wouldn't send the instruments to me because someone had walked into the store that he knew that was on the fence about buying one of the instruments on Wednesday. He told me that he would let her have the pick of the instruments she preferred if she was going to buy and then he could send me what was left over and if she didn't purchase, then I could try both next week. I made sure to have him repeat this several times to make sure I understood clearly. I told him that I was ready to make payment on an instrument immediately (no being on the fence at all) and he refused to send them to me for selection. Keep in mind that these instruments were custom ordered for me to begin with and I had started contacting him again before his walk in had expressed any interest. I told him that I found this to be completely unacceptable and incredibly disrespectful as well. I also made it clear after his decision was final that I would relay my experience with him.
I've had amazing experiences ordering from Weiner Music and Muncy Winds. I wasn't a difficult customer. Being sick at the new year with fresh deductibles set me back and despite that, I was able to raise the several thousands of dollars to keep my agreement and word which means a lot to me, with Kessler Music. Kessler Music clearly doesn't value their word and honor nearly as much.
Do business with them if you'd like. But there are clearly risks. I'll be looking for an instrument elsewhere.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-02-22 00:34
Having worked in retail music for the better part of 40 years, and realizing just how tight things are in the music business these days, I'm not so sure I find much blame in the way Kessler has handled the situation. The dealer can only offer the instrument for trial and sale when delivered by the maker. Kessler had no control over when the flutes would show up. If you didn't contact him the entire month of January and the first half of February I don't blame him for selling the instrument to the first person to show up with cash. I also don't blame him for allowing the person that showed up first chance at one of the flutes IF you hadn't been in touch with him since he contacted you informing you of their arrival at his establishment. Your physical and financial concerns are not his problem. Having two specially ordered flutes that he might not be able to sell immediately are his concern.
For reasons understandable to you, you didn't hold up your end of the bargain when the flutes were available. If you didn't keep him informed of your situation starting the first of January my opinion is that he acted as any other businessperson would.
Situations like this are the reason I wouldn't special order an instrument for anyone without a 50% nonrefundable deposit.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2015-02-22 00:42
I kept Kessler informed of my situation via email.
I would have offered a deposit for the instruments if requested. Not a problem at all. I wasn't down to zero dollars by any means.
It was a matter of twelve days between my delay and once again, the instruments weren't sold. It would have been fine if they had, I understand business as a business owner myself. It's that he refused to send me the instruments even if I was going to pay in full today because someone was "maybe" going to buy one.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-22 01:45
I agreed with Gary when he posted, which, to no fault of Gary's, was based on a limited fact base that you added to afterwards. Now I'm with you. Are the any other relevant facts, as best you can determine, not cited?
Having kept in touch with Kessler, as you indicated in your follow up post, certainly speaks more to your favor than before this was mentioned.
(BTW, I am sorry for all your bad luck (outside this transaction). I hope you are better.)
But it also appears you didn't offer a deposit, nor in fairness did Kessler ask for one.
Had such a deposit occured, its size and whether it was refundable or not might go into where I lay blame.
The larger and less refundable it was, the more this would have me side with you.
Sigh. It's hard. You're a good guy who had every expectation on making his promise to Kessler, and like Gary said, a better situation would have been where Kessler asked for a deposit on a special order item, or you offered one (especially if they accepted it.) But like you, I'll bet Kessler's been burned by customers he's special ordered for before. That of course, in fairness, is not your problem, anymore than your bad state of health was his. In fact, it probably crossed Kessler's mind if your health situation was just an excuse not to pay right away, maybe get him down to an even lower price once the instruments were in the store. Sadly, some consumers do disgusting stuff like that, and nice guys like you and me pay the price in store owner paranoia.
You've heard the expression, "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush," right? Kessler must have seen dollar signs when a customer walked into his shop almost ready to do business. Yes, I think it would have been nice to have offered you "first rights of refusal," and he should have, but then he would have had to trust that you'd deliver on your word, all while he might have had someone else's MasterCard in his hand, ready to swipe. When you're a small shop, like Gary alluded to, you have to "make hay when the sun shines." Kessler saw that potential in store oppotunity and acted on it. It's not nice, just business.
There was no exchange of money (consideration) and therefore no contract. This may have been exactly why Kessler didn't want your money: to not be beholden to you if someone put cash on the table first for the instruments.
Did he have your credit card already on file? If so, I agree, he REALLY wasn't nice. He could have gone ahead and charged your card right there. But again, he's probably thinking, if in fact this was the case of having your card on file, "what if this Garcia guy tells his credit card company he never authorized the transaction?" Having plastic in hand, as a result of someone giving it to you over the counter makes the case for the consumer to deny the transaction, or consent for the transaction tougher.
Sure you'd have to return the product, etc., etc. but time is money, and it would be a hassle for him, and he probably feels the value of the "good will" he earns with you isn't worth the potential loss of an person sale.
Maybe he got a better price from the walk in customer. I'm not justifying his actions, just maybe, trying to explain them.
I know you indicate that you contacted Kessler before the walk in customer, but at that time, AND THIS IS KEY TO ME, when you left messages, did you indicate that you were you ready to pay right then, over the phone?
Have you done business with them before in, say, instrument purchases, such that good will has already been established?
I'm sorry for your situation; all of it. Feel better, all ways.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-02-22 02:38
Your original post showed no indication that you responded to his email to you notifying you of the flutes' arrival until mid February. IF you had been in contact with him all along, and you informed him of your intentions to purchase a flute, I see no real fault in how you handled things. However, I still find no fault in the way he has conducted business. Promises to someday soon buy a flute is not the same as buying a flute. He needs to turn his inventory as fast as possible to keep cash flow and the ability to order new inventory.
If you think you still want a flute like the one you had him order for you, I'd still try to work a deal. At this point he may sweeten the deal just to put this all behind him.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2015-02-22 02:47
Gary and Dave, thanks for both your responses, they have been helpful in clarifying my position.
My credit card was not on file, he had never requested it before. When I called him today, I had my credit card in my hand ready to pay for both instruments to send out for trial. In a logical world, he would have charged me and I would have absolutely taken one of them. I know the make and model of what I was getting very very well.
And Yes! When I called on Monday, I was ready to purchase the instrument with credit card in hand too. He didn't call me back. In fact, it wasn't until the third time I called back and expressed frustration on Thursday for not receiving a response that Dave finally decided to return my call on Friday.
It's a GREAT thing that he didn't ask me for a deposit because I would have given it to him and he still could have pulled this same situation.
Thanks for your sympathies and yes, I'm glad to report I am feeling much better and lucky to have a dentist two blocks up who can make crowns in a CNC machine on site.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-22 05:54
"And Yes! When I called on Monday, I was ready to purchase the instrument with credit card in hand too."
Understood Mr. Garcia. That sentiment of "I'll pay right now," was on your mind, and on your mind at that time. Got it.
But for curiosity sake, was that sentiment shared in your messages left at Kessler?
"It's a GREAT thing that he didn't ask me for a deposit because I would have given it to him and he still could have pulled this same situation."
Yes or no. Had you given you a deposit, you would have given him, what's known in contract law as consideration, making him responsible for holding the flute for you for more than mere courtesy, but contractual obligation.
Then again, and this is only hypothetical, people keep deposits, or reneg on deals and return deposts, and seem to worry about the potential legal effects of such conduct only when you use the legal system to make them answer to their actions. Even then, with lack of anything in writing, Kessler could have (I'm not saying they would) lied and said in deliberations that your deposit money really was for some "French Horn from Mongolia."
Go prove something when its your word against theirs. Best case scenario, they return your deposit (if your lucky with some penalty), which of couse was worth less to you than the instrument, or else, by economic definition, you would have not desired the transaction in the first place.
This is why when the guy behind the counter says, "what you don't trust me?" I have utterly no issue saying, "no, I don't. Let's put it in writing so we both have to stick to our end of the bargain."
Post Edited (2015-02-22 06:06)
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2015-02-24 23:33
Wish I could like posts on the Bboard like facebook allows.
I did relay that in my messages left at Kessler.
I think I know what happened. When I told him that I was delayed, he started advertising those specific flutes that he custom ordered for me on his website and even a "buy it now" ebay ad. The price he quoted me was several hundreds of dollars less than what he was advertising. He had a walk-in that he could potentially make a much larger commission on so I was pushed to the "back of the line" of sorts.
I understand the need to make as much money as possible in a business in order to survive. I have my own business and live and die by my reviews. There is a point in my mind where I have to weigh what's more damaging, taking a slight loss on a segment or the damage caused by a bad review. For me the review is much more costly. Perhaps Kessler concerned about what people think about him and the way he operates. After all I was willing to put up with a lot to get an amazing deal.
I think from this point I know that cheapest route isn't always the best. Had I gone with another dealer that maybe quoted me a couple hundred dollars more, I would have had the instrument and not wasted so much time and energy.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-02-25 01:16
Maybe they just saw it as "bird in the hand" situation. It is hard to know what actually took place from their perspective.
It is unfortunate that you feel that you were not treated well. I have heard many positive reviews from folks who have dealt with Kessler. I know that he makes a lot of effort to make a situation right when he has dropped the ball and not met a customer's expectations.
Perhaps this can be resolved privately with him to meet your satisfaction.
Post Edited (2015-02-25 20:00)
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Author: kararae02
Date: 2015-02-25 09:57
I do a decent amount of business with Dave Kessler and to be honest he is the one of a few people in a music retail store to not completely and totally rip me off. I purchased a $900 clarinet from a local music store for $2000 when I was in middle school. I bought a ligature that Kessler has for $75 from my local music store for $110. I refuse to believe that Dave is out to rip anyone off nor will I ever believe that regardless of anyone's opinion. I actually talked to him a few hours ago about a mouthpiece I ordered from him and some issues I'm having with my intonation and he has spent a lot of time working with me and trying to help me and he has always told me what he thinks will work the best for me, even if that happens to be a cheaper product. I feel that Dave truly cares about his customers and it would literally be impossible for him to make every single person happy because there will be people that disagree with him no matter what. And while yes he is a business man and has to make money, he will not try to rip anyone off. You could have dealt with situations much much worse.
I'm sorry that you have had a negative experience with them but I don't think bashing him online is the way to deal with it. However, I'm also sure that those that have dealt with him personally will not change their feelings toward him or his store because of your one bad experience versus the many positive experiences of others. I really hope that those who read this and haven't done business with him before will deal with Kessler for themselves so that they can formulate their own opinions.
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2015-02-25 18:48
Hello James,
Hello James,
I am surprised to hear that you have experienced problems with Kessler Music.
As a manufacturer that deals with many stores worldwide I can tell you that Kessler is very focused on providing excellent products to their customers, in fine condition and providing good value. I regularly hear from customers that they have been well taken care of by Kessler Music.
Perhaps there has been some communication issue? (lost Emails or phone messages) It just seems uncharacteristic to hear of the problems. Of course, things can happen that challenge any relationship. I suggest that you try communicating with Kessler again, directly, to try and resolve the situation to everyone's satisfaction.
These things can get very difficult when they are on newsgroups, etc. Hopefully you will be able to come to a "meeting of the minds" and let the group know that the situation has been resolved fairly.
Best of luck with getting things worked out.
Morrie
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-02-25 19:40
I'm still having a hard time seeing that Kessler Music did anything that any other music company wouldn't have done. Somebody special ordered two, not one, flutes and didn't make a purchase when they came in....maybe for good reasons, but the music company was still stuck with 2 flutes that they would not normally have in stock. As far as we know, the flutes are still available, and the person that special ordered them hasn't bought one of them.
Since the flutes are several hundred dollars less than you'd pay for them elsewhere, I'd probably take advantage of the savings and put this all behind me.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2015-02-26 06:59
Kararae02: Bigger dealers that move more inventory have better prices on nearly every product compared to your local store to your local music store.
Many people share their experiences working with various companies on this site, good or bad. There is no reason for me to conceal my experience with Dave Kessler any more or less than if it had been a good experience I was reporting. I also find that musicians (especially those play music to eat) are a bit scared to post when they've had a bad experience because they don't want to appear "difficult". This is to the detriment of the rest of us.
I also didn't post this in order to strong arm Kessler into selling me an instrument he for some reason clearly had second thoughts selling me. I have no interest in purchasing from him and have moved on. Just like he has, listing the instruments on auction site.
Just doing a search, I found this post from a different forum that seems a bit similar in regards to the communication issue. http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?62647-Kind-of-Dissapointed-with-Kessler-and-Sons
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Author: kararae02
Date: 2015-02-26 07:49
I realize that small stores have to charge more because they don't get as much business but this store is actually decently popular in the area and basically lives to rip people off. I'm not saying that you should not share your experiences but you're not resolving the issue by talking badly about Kessler and sons music online. Also, I honestly do not care about your opinion of Dave or Kessler Music as a whole because I know how well he has treated me and that barely anyone would honestly decide against going to Kessler Music due to your one bad review of them versus the multitude of positive ones, especially considering that Morrie Backun himself only has good things to say about him.
Sorry if that's rude, I'm just a little upset that you would bash them so badly for a decision that many others would have also made when I have repeatedly been treated much much worse and ripped off a lot by other music stores. Dave Kessler genuinely cares about his customers and I wouldn't want anyone who hasn't personally dealt with them to presume otherwise until they do deal with him for themselves.
Post Edited (2015-02-26 20:17)
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