 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sweeneyrod
Date: 2015-02-21 17:55
On my clarinet (a Buffet E11), there's small gap between the (right hand) E/B key and the part that pulls down the F/C key. This means when I play E/B without holding the F/C key down as well, the sound is unreliable. I've had this fixed several times, but it always comes back again after an hour or so of playing. Does anyone know how to fix this permanently?
Also, my left hand F#/C# key seems out of position, and clacks against the F/C key. This is usually fixed for longer, but also seems to come back eventually. Any advice on this?
Thanks
Roddy
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-21 18:22
"there's small gap between the (right hand) E/B key and the part that pulls down the F/C key. This means when I play E/B without holding the F/C key down as well,"
Okay: so it sounds like the "crow's foot," (part that pulls down the F/C key) one of whose jobs it is to depress the F/C key automatically when the E/B key is depressed, is not closing the F/C enough to make a firm seal on its pad.
This is likely due to this space (small gap) you describe between the "(right hand) E/B key and the part (the crow's foot) that pulls down the F/C key."
Granted, I'm working in the dark, and could be wrong, but this is the first thing to look at and rule in or out as problematic, before digging deeper.
Were it me, on scene, I'd be inclined to adjust this myself because I know how, and perhaps equally important, I appreciate the "down the line" effects of making this adjustment. But I wouldn't do said adjustment without taking a look at all the places said adjustments are likely to impact. For example, while you classically describe a crow's foot adjustment problem, for all I know, the real issue could lie in a pad needing replacement, or multiple issues. Occam's razor although, suggests this not the case.
Let me elaborate on what I mean by "down the line."
If I was careless in overcorrecting this problem I could just as easily give you a situation where it would be the E/B key that wouldn't close enough, rather than the F/C key you describe. There lies balance in correcting, but not overcorrecting this. This crows foot position also has implications for the relation between the F/C key and the F#/C# key--so the repair needs to be done "hollistically," mindful of all the keys that play a role here, and their levers/pads. This includes the left hand levers, one of which you also describe to be in desrepair.
And sometimes the solution lies in [part] with adjusting the height of a key.
===
You also speak of temporary versus permanent fixes. I want to express that these 2 words represent the opposites on a spectrum of the "length of a fix,"where there is plenty of grey area.
To point. I've seen people put all kinds of devices on their clarinet (a piece of double stick mounting tape for example) to correct problems until they can get to a repair center. I'll deem this a temporary fix.
Alternatively, I've seen people get the clarinets formally fixed at a good repair center: a permament one.
Neither is "permanent." It's just a matter of degree. A year from now, the permanently fixed clarinet may benefit from being readjusted yet again, depending upon things like the tolerance of the player for such issues, among other variables.
Perhaps the expression "all moving parts are subject to wear and tear" best applies here, especially when such lever's accuracy are only as good as the [slowly] dimensionally changing wood platform they're attached to.
=======
Bottom line, I've really got to go on this one with: take it to a good service tech. They will understand all these down the line implications I discussed, and have eyes on the problem that I cannot. By the way you describe the problem (absolutely no insult intended) I believe it unwise for me to try to be your eyes and ears while you try to fix it yourself.
Good luck.
Post Edited (2015-02-21 18:32)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-21 18:43
What kind of case are you using with your clarinet? Soft sided cases are often a cause of this as are hard cases where the joints can rattle around inside or the lid cushion puts a lot of pressure on the keywork when it's closed. Also a knock or fall can cause this, or if the joints aren't held correctly during assembly/disassembly.
To me it sounds like your F/C key has been bent down so it's out of adjustment with the E/B key and catches against the side of the F#/C# touch.
Any decent repairer will be able to diagnose and repair this relatively easily as it's a pretty common problem.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-21 19:01
Chris P., who has forgotten more about repair than I know, offers a perfect example of the need for a repair tech.
He describes a crow's foot problem CAUSED by (i.e. the real underlying problem being) a bent F/C key that may have a) knocked the crow's foot out of line and b) caused collisions with other keys as a secondary effect.
...or a screw could be loose, or both, or whatever...
repair tech. : - )
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Author: sweeneyrod
Date: 2015-02-21 19:06
Dave - yes, it is the gap with the crow's foot that's the problem. Thanks for telling me what it's called.
Chris - I'm using the relatively soft case it came with. Is there any way to tell if it is fitting in properly?
To clarify, the problem isn't the intrinsic problem of the gap between the crow's foot and the key - it's been fixed several times by a couple of different repairers. The problem is that the gap reappears very quickly, and I'd like to know why that happens (could it the case, or my playing technique) and what I could do to stop it reappearing so fast.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-21 19:25
Check the case lid on the inside - if there are deep impressions of the keywork, then it's putting pressure on the instrument. If you have a zip-up lid compartment full of all manner of stuff, that will also apply undue pressure on the instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-21 19:27
in that case I strongly suspect one or more pads swelling during play, thus causing misadjustment with the crow's foot.
Have the "bottom" pads been looked after and perhaps been changed?
--
Ben
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-21 19:39
Best solution Roddy.....?
Send it to Chris for repair.
Chris will correctly fix it for you (or find what truly is causing this) in such a manner that barring future physical trauma to the instrument like he described, future service to this will only be the wear and tear adjustment variety I discussed.
(I bear 0 financial association with chris, but I do think some of the repair work he's shown on this bboard makes him first rate...and you are both on the "same side of the pond")
Post Edited (2015-02-21 19:41)
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Author: sweeneyrod
Date: 2015-02-21 20:41
Dave - We are both on the same side of the pond, but still a few hundred miles away (I'm in Leeds). I'll bear him in mind if my local repairer (who I would recommend to any clarinetists in Yorkshire - http://www.steveswoodwind.co.uk/) doesn't manage to fix it.
Chris - no impressions in the inside of the case. I'm starting to think it's a side effect of major damage/repairs from ages ago (although I think the problem dates from before that), or some really bad technique on my part that my teacher's somehow not noticed.
At least it can't be the problem with my old (second-hand) clarinet, which, when being serviced, turned out not to be from the manufacturer we thought it was at all!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-21 21:31
E11s should have fairly strong keywork and the F/C touchpiece is much stronger on these than on some clarinets I've seen that can bend up just by looking at them. But that's not to say the F/C key can't be bent through accident or rough handling.
Do you hold the lower joint in your left hand with your thumb holding the E/B and F/C pads closed during assembly (and with the tenon corks sufficiently greased)? That way you'll prevent the keys being bent due to the pads being held closed. If you hold the lower joint any other way you run the risk of bending the keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-21 23:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh6Pg__DRUE
This video will help you understand what's going on with your crows foot, whether or not you attempt any of the adjustments suggested. I've posted this link on other threads, and some here on BBoard don't fully agree with all the methods in the video. As usual, there's more than one way to skin a cat- be sure whatever you do doesn't make things worse.
I like the idea of making my own adjustments, very powerful. And we all need good techs also. Good to leverage the 2 against each other.
My older (Ridenour) Arioso has a standard crows foot with all the usual problems, I've adjusted many times, some times more successfully than others. My newer (Ridenour) Lyrique prototype has 2 little screws to make it easy to adjust the crows foot- wonderful! Is there any way to retrofit this improvement onto a regular setup? How about just drilling and tapping in some set screws?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-22 00:58
Stan is very kind to offer this video, it serves as a great tool for understanding principles, but IMHO (not that Stan said otherwise) in may still necessitate the problem be handled by a tech. This speaks nothing bad to its producer, Tom Ridenour, who is as knowledgeable as he is generous to make such videos.
Let's talk to Chris P's scenario of a bent F/C key. Again, this may or may not be what has actually happened to you, but it's certainly plausible.
As a result of this bend, the crows foot is too low, and there's so much space between it and the E/B key, the F/C does not come down far enough for its key and pad to make a seal with the clarinet when the E/B key is depressed.
So then, you start filling this gap with cork on both sides of the crow's foot , as per Tom's video, and viola, your E/B key problem is "solved."
Meanwhile your F#/C# keys, when depressed and voiced, makes a lousy sounding note. Why? The crows foot is bent so low, that the key/pad that opens (not closes like the F/C and E/B levers) when the F#/C# key is depressed, isn't opening enough.
Here, the real solution was to physically reorient the F/C key up, and make sure it angles correct with respect to the crow's foot and all other keys. This will allow the F#/C# key to be depressed low enough to open the aformentioned key which isn't opening enough. To do it any other way, if I may make a metahpor to automobile collision work, is to realign the steering of a badly collision damaged vehicle, before first straightening the chasis.
===
Like I said, be wary of down the line implications to a problem. Fixing things the wrong way can do that. And with no disrespect to your previous techs intended, their repairs may have been suboptimal. I do though wish to give them the benefit of the doubt: my eyes were not there at the time.
Tom would be the first to tell you that his recommended fix was one more associated with a wear and tear issue to a key that got a bit out of alignment, than the solution to key damage that Chris presented as a possibility.
Post Edited (2015-02-22 01:52)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-22 02:53
Our wonderful 17th century technology (such as tuning by sliding a cork greased joint) has its limits. The low point is surely the crows foot. When it's well made and adjusted perfectly, then put in regular play (or even stored in a case unplayed, I think), it will find its way out of adjustment, within months if not weeks.
So I would hope every clarinet player beyond the "let's use alternate fingerings to make some notes sound better or be more reliable" level- would learn how to make this adjustment in some reasonable and safe way. So that when a big clarinet moment comes their way, they don't have to suffer through it with an uncooperative B4 ![[B4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b4.gif) , as an example. Just because their favorite tech didn't come with them on this particular gig.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: sweeneyrod
Date: 2015-02-22 17:00
Thanks Stan, that's a really helpful video.
Don't worry Dave, I plan to take it to a repairer before considering trying anything myself.
Chris - I didn't previously hold it when putting it together like you suggested, but what you say makes sense, and I will do from now on. Holding it incorrectly during assembly could well be the cause of the problem, I think.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-22 18:20
The easiest way to remember to hold each joint correctly during assembly is to hold each joint with the relative hand that controls that joint. So hold the top joint in your left hand and the lower joint in your right hand.
Hold the top joint in the upturned palm of your left hand and close your fingers so they hold the ring keys down and the throat A key open - with the rings held closed, they won't get bent and the bridge key link is raised so there's no risk of the silencer cork being ripped off.
(The lower joint as previously mentioned is held in your right hand with the palm facing down so the thumb holds the low E and F pads closed so those keys don't get bent and your fingers wrap around the joint to hold it securely.)
If you hold the top joint as I've described, then that will also apply to holding a bass clarinet top joint (should you move onto playing bass clarinet later on) as holding the throat A key open will also raise the extra linkage between the joints so it too won't get mashed up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-22 19:19
Here's Chris' thoughts on video: ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
http://youtu.be/MoYg8nTL5eA?t=2m35s
Oh, wait, that's what NOT to do, sorry.
=====
Serious tone, very serious, no joke:
But sadly, as I look on youtube for a decent example of what Chris wrote, neither are virtually EVERY video I have seen on this subject on Youtube.
Poster afer poster uses the keys as points to grab, leverage, bend, throw out of alignment over time, and possibly break the clarinet. It's shameful. These people are passing along things they present as advice that is patently wrong.
No surprise, Tom Ridenour gets it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTCS1JX05oQ
In a slight various of Chris' method, (I use Chris' method) Tom uses a "hands off the keys" of the lower joint method. I like Chris' method best because the application of force to the lower joint not only doesn't hurt it, like Tom's method, but enhances its proper alignment during assembly.
Like the wrong methods, Chris leverages use of keys. But unlike these methods his promotes, not compromises alignment of the keys.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-02-23 01:00
This is a common problem that I usually blame on assembling the clarinet while holding the keys in question.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-23 01:09
If you're holding the keys by applying pressure to the touchpieces or pushing the pad cups upwards from the undersides during assembly, that will bend them and put things out of regulation. If you're holding the pad cups closed, you won't be bending anything.
This is why you also see a lot of flutes with the footjoint keys all out of regulation as the low C# key usually gets bent through poor handling during assembly so it remains open when the low C key is closed (not to mention the tenon often gets rounded off making the footjoint a loose fit).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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