 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kararae02
Date: 2015-02-18 04:07
Before I ask any questions I will first explain my setup. I have a buffet r13 clarinet that I got new this past week (silver plated) , rico reserve x10e mouthpiece, optimum ligature that is broken due to masters mouthpiece, moba cocobolo bell, legere signature series reeds.
I didn't realize when I bought a vandoren masters mouthpiece that they required a specific ligature. I bought the optimum and it bent, so now it doesn't work well with any mouthpiece. I'm debating on a silverstein original or a new optimum. Any input will be greatly appreciated!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 04:23
Well the Silverstein has that really robust sound going for it that you like in the Optimum. It actually allows for more resonance so it will feel even more so than the Optimum. You'll be able to use the Silverstein on both regular mouthpieces and the Masters so it should solve all your problems.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kararae02
Date: 2015-02-18 04:30
I honestly wasn't even very impressed with the master's mouthpiece. Do you know how the sizing works for silverstein?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 04:45
The "impossible to figure out" sizing on the Woodwind Brasswind site would be:
Medium/Small Clarinet/Alto Sax
for a standard Bb size mouthpiece. The "Small Clarinet" one is for Eb.
Of course if you want to deal directly with Silverstein, look on the website for a way to measure your mouthpiece and they will custom make one. I don't see this as that critical since the top screw thingy makes the adjustment for you.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 07:53
Kara:
There is a specific decision tree, that I think you understand (although I'm not sure) that needs to be followed.
If you stay with the Masters mouthpiece, according to Vandoren, your only metal ligature option is an M/O for the Masters mouthpiece.
Note: I did not say your run of the mill M/O, I said the Masters M/O.
Stated alternatively, the Optimum ligature is not sanctioned for use by Vandoren on their Master's mouthpieces. I'm not saying violating this policy will put a rift in the space time continium, but your own experiences are testament to the possibilty for problems.
All flexible ligatures, leather, cloth, string, cord, including the Silverstein are fine with the Masters or other mouthpieces, as I believe the Optimum and the run of the mill M/O ligature are with latter non-Masters mouthpieces.
You may wish to confer with Silverstein on guidance for size when using it on a Master mouthpiece.
BTW: if you are liking the more open facing of the Rico Reserve x10e mouthpiece (technically now the D'Addario I believe), seek out the CL5 or CL6 Masters mouthpieces for similar tip opening.
If you had bad results on a Masters CL4, it may be tip opening related.
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Author: James S
Date: 2015-02-18 09:49
Decision tree? I would call it a sequential game of incomplete information Time to whip out that game theory textbook that's been gathering dust! The cool thing about the Silverstein ( or really any well-made flexible ligature) is you can use em on all sorts of Bb mouthpieces.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 20:20
Kara:
The link to the Vandoren page on mouthpiece tip openings for the Masters Series appears below. Tip opening is not only one of many attributes of a mouthpiece, but other attributes can enhance or detract from that tip opening, such as mouthpiece facing length. The CL4 as a relatively long facing, and a 1.10mm opening. This might feel like a smaller tip opening compared to other mouthpieces (with shorter facings) because of this long facing length.
I am not suggesting a 1:1 sort of correlation between these two attributes. The width of the rails, the curvature of the rails, in fact many attributes, not the least of which our own nature, go into making a mouthpiece be what it is to us.
Kindly note the European convention of using American comma marks for decimal point notation, where we'd use a decimal point.
Stated another way, the CL6 has a 1.135mm tip opening, as can be seen at the bottom of the chart. Values are recorded in 1/100mm.
http://www.vandoren-en.com/file/162039/
On this page http://www.woodwinds.daddario.com/woodwindsProductDetail.Page?ActiveID=4683&productid=159&productname=Reserve_Mouthpieces&sid=5f55ac3f-9978-4124-8eac-c43d6d1e24f9
D'Addario lists the tip openings on their Bb clarinet mouthpiece offerings. Notice the facings may be shorter (there's some discretion in the industry as to what defines short, medium and long, and all that in between--you may want to search this bboard for more info, using the search feature at the top of the page, about facing length).
Personally, I think, having tried both, the D'Addario x10e user finds most parallel, when trying a Vandoren Masters, with the CL6 Masters. But that's just one man's opinion.
By the way, some explanation on the ligature choice decision tree from an above post. According to people I talked with at Vandoren NY, the Masters mouthpiece line has an unusually quick taper in its circumference as one follows the mouthpiece from its cork, to the mouthpiece window. A regular M/O ligature (the Optimum as well I suspect) may present problems with getting the two vertical bands that get drawn together with the adjustment screw, to sit parallel to one another.
Take Vandoren doctrine on this matter at the level of adherence comfortable to you. I once accidently put an inverted Bonade metal lig on a Masters.
You know what? Everything was just fine. But maybe in the long run problems might have arisen.
Good luck.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 20:26)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 21:57
Hey WhitePlainsDave,
You stated:
"According to people I talked with at Vandoren NY, the Masters mouthpiece line has an unusually quick taper in its circumference as one follows the mouthpiece from its cork, to the mouthpiece window. A regular M/O ligature (the Optimum as well I suspect) may present problems with getting the two vertical bands that get drawn together with the adjustment screw, to sit parallel to one another."
Oddly enough I did NOT have this problem with the regular M/O on the Masters Mouthpiece (can we remember back to when there was only one M/O ligature?).
HOWEVER, I do have the OPPOSITE problem on a NON Masters mouthpiece with the M/O specifically designated for the Masters. The 'vertical bands' become distorted to a "V." Since I worry for what stresses this may cause in the long run on the rather small screw, I will only use this one on my CL4.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 23:41
"Oddly enough I did NOT have this problem with the regular M/O on the Masters Mouthpiece (can we remember back to when there was only one M/O ligature?)."
OK..I merely repeat Vandoren's words, and suggested above that we "Take Vandoren doctrine on this matter at the level of adherence comfortable to [each of us]."
That said, you just recently reported in another thread, if I recall correctly, a regular M/O lig BREAKING on a Masters mouthpiece, correct?
Wouldn't this support Vandoren's guidance here to use the correct M/O lig on the correct mouthpiece (Masters or non-Masters)?
"HOWEVER, I do have the OPPOSITE problem on a NON Masters mouthpiece with the M/O specifically designated for the Masters. The 'vertical bands' become distorted to a "V." "
OK. Thanks for sharing. But humbly sir, I ask again, wouldn't this support Vandoren's guidance here to use the correct M/O lig, and be entirely consistent with the guidance Vandoren gave me, and I repeated above?
============
Paul, I admit confusion. To me, it's as if I've said, "holes in boats have been suggested as a cause for why they may sink." And you have said, "oddly enough, I did have a boat with holes in it, and it did sink."
You are perfectly fine to have contradictory opinions (which by the way would be with Vandoren, not me.) I just can't understand which side of the debate you're on.
As for me, when I do play a Masters, not my first mouthpiece, I slap on a leather lig, which doesn't even happen to be a Vandoren, and I'm fine.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-02-19 02:31
You can also contact Silverstein folks directly for sizing. When I asked, they said you can take a picture of the mouthpiece on a tape measure. They'll see the width, and recommend which one they would suggest.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kararae02
Date: 2015-02-19 04:05
Has anyone tried the silverstein and the optimum? I don't plan to continue using the Masters mouthpiece, so either would work well for me.
I really want to know which gives better results. Also, I've heard the silverstein works well with synthetic reeds but not so much with cane reeds, is that true?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-19 06:42
Dear Whiteplainsdave,
No debate, just a reporting of my experience.
I only stated my old M/O broke, I never specified under what circumstances. It was in fact a wearing of the very small threads of the the very small screw. Probably a combination of my over tightening and perhaps jumping from mouthpiece to mouthpiece (Masters and non Masters). Although I hasten to add that Vandoren quietly put this "New" Masters version out subsequent to the marketing of the M/O ligature which was sold with the Masters mouthpieces in the first place. I think they realized they could have made it a smaller diameter.......which they now have done.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-19 07:47
Paul, you confuse me.
Your words from another post after the regular (perhaps at the time you bought it ONLT) M/O ligature failed on you:
"I took the opportunity to order the "Masters Version Only" model "
Why would you do this unless you planned to use it solely on a Masters mouthpiece? (maybe you do, unlike before were 1 lig served both Masters and non-Masters mouthpieces)
If you switch this new lig off with Masters and non-Masters mouthpieces, you risk stripping the very screw you reported stripping with the first non-Masters M/O lig by likely overtightening it on a Masters mouthpiece to get the screw posts to approach alignment, or at least one another.
To restate, you report screw thread's as the proximate cause of death (COD) of the lig. But I think this is merely symptomatic of the larger problem of trying to put a "square peg in a round hole."
To rephrase, overtightening the screws to get the posts to align, or merely come closer together, but not in alignment, by using a regular M/O lig on a Masters, as you did, is no better, although perfectly the opposite, as over tightening your new M/O Master lig on a non-Masters mouthpiece to get the posts to align, or merely come closer together.
...same problem, only the mouthpiece and lig have been changed to Masters where it wasn't before, and vice versa.
In your initial breakage, I think you want to attribute overtightening on either Masters and non-Masters mouthpiece equally, when maybe that's not the case (or maybe not your case).
I submit that that the first lig suffered more trauma being subject to a Masters mouthpiece (maybe you don't disagree with that.)
I say this because invision a screw being screwed into a nut perfectly designed to accept it. Now picture the same screw being screwed into that nut at an angle, as might be the case when tightening a non-Master M/O lig on a Masters mouthpiece where the screw posts don't align in parallel.
Don't be surprised if you end up with stripped and cross threaded threads as a result. Need I tell you that the lig's single screw is sensitive, with reverse threads on one post so that tightening brings both posts together (or loostening, both posts apart,) not just one to the other as the case with ordinary lig screws. It's all part of the quick on and off features of the lig, as you may know.
When the posts that accept the screw on the lig aren't parallel, you're screwing at an angle. And that's going to happen when you try putting a regular M/O onto a Masters mouthpiece, or vice versa.
OK--once upon a time there was no Masters M/O lig. Heck, Vandoren even bundled it with Masters mouthpieces. Duly noted, and shame on them. But then Vandoren realized their mistake and introduced a new product. For you not to obey their convention here and use your new lig on both types of mouthpieces, is to risk running into the same stripping problem as before, only in the opposite scenario, precisely for the reasons they now have two ligatures.
You seem to love the lig. Consider buying a non-Masters one as well for use on your non-Masters mouthpieces.
Regardless if you agree, I hope I have made myself clear as to my trepidation here.
Ironically, it seems Vandoren's adversity to metal ligatures other than their own seemed initially far better addressed with any decent non-Vandoren two screw metal ligature, where the top screw could be tighter than the bottom to maintain similar pressure on the reed, on an every narrower Masters mouthpiece
Today, that third party lig and the new Masters M/O might be more closely matched.
Even if you disagree, and consider the M/O superior, I urge you not to mix and match your M/O ligs and your Masters/non-Masters mouthpieces.
Comics: I already see the scripture related jokes about serving two Masters.
Post Edited (2015-02-19 07:50)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-19 17:50
Well I do actually appreciate the elucidation of the M/O problem.
It took me two different Subject lines to explain one ligature 'worked' in two different scenarios while the other doesn't. And that really only came about because I threw the M/O on other mouthpieces just to see what happens.
I bought the "species specific" M/O also to experiment and found much to my chagrin that it IS "species specific." And yes, Vandoren is being a little flaky about this, when they should have clarified their re-tooling.
I am also fully supportive of the idea of having BOTH ligatures on hand.
The bottom line (lest we forget) is that this is one HECK of a ligature and should be a consideration whenever one is thinking to get "another" ligature.
Oh, but to correct (and not offend!!!!) one last little bit: A standard metal, two screw ligature is in fact fabricated to the "standard" conical shape (the top being smaller to a specified degree than the bottom) of a standard French mouthpiece. So, actually a standard metal, two screw ligature does NOT work on the Masters because the Masters (between the designated lines of ligature) takes a more dramatic angle than that which can be accommodated by a standard ligature.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-19 18:04
I understand your point about conventional two screw metal ligatures on the Masters mouthpiece line.
All I know is I once put, by accident, a Bonade Inverted lig on a Masters mouthpiece, and between the difference in circumference (or diameter: for all intents and purposes they measure the same thing here) between the top and bottom of the lig as you report, AND the ability to tighten each screw independently, things were perfectly fine for that one session.
I think a standard lig's lack of double screwing of posts, and its larger threads also make it (on a decent lig that is) less subject to screw thread corruption.
Restated, such a standard lig isn't as fine a piece of machinery as an M/O: the M/O offers more precision at the expense of greater delicacy.
My results might have been more disappointing with long term usage.
Post Edited (2015-02-19 19:39)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-20 07:16
I could not replicate your success with a Bonade inverted ligature on my Masters Mouthpiece. It keeps sliding off - will not stay on at all. Have you modified your Bonade in any way?
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-20 09:20
none whatsoever, won't a leather lig buy you over until the M/O masters arrives..?
Post Edited (2015-02-20 09:43)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-20 14:48
Not the point, I have a drawer full of the best ligatures.
...............Paul Aviles
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